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Archive of Special Education Message Board Folder:
ADD/ADHD School Issues
August 5, 1995 - October 3, 1996
FILE NAME:  addsch01.txt
437 Messages - 112 Pages

SUBJECT:      NEW FOLDER
Date:    95-08-05 10:30:43 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

This is a new folder.
Recent messages have been moved from
ADHD and 504
All previous messages have been archived into the Special Education library for your use.
Post your messages here concerning ADD/ADHD and school issues, accommodations in the schools, the I.D.E.A., Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1975 and the A.D.A.


SUBJECT:      Moved messages
Date:    95-08-05 10:32:33 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

These messages have been moved FROM:
ADHD and 504


SUBJECT:      Answers to 504 in NY
Date:    95-05-31 21:53:59 EDT    FROM:      Bren L R

SusanS29 and Ratatat, both of you had good suggestions and ideas.  After not receiving an answer to the letter I sent to the Director of Pupil Services in our district, I called the Superintendent's office.  Without even speaking to him, just leaving a message, I got a return phone call the next day from the Director of Pupil Services and her immediate supervisor.  Right away, a meeting was setup for me.  I did finally find out that our district does have a 504 Plan.  At this point, she feels that all of the modifications can be handled in my daughter's third grade classroom next year.  I hope that if anyone else is having the same problem that I had, this may help them.  It was a drastic way to sove the problem, but I now have been told how to get ahold of both of the people at the district office if I have any other concerns with my daughter's education.


SUBJECT:      Re:Answers to 504 in NY
Date:    95-06-01 01:09:49 EDT    FROM:      SusanS29

"I did finally find out that our district does have a 504 Plan. "
Why am I not surprised? (grin)
"At this point, she feels that all of the modifications can be handled in my
daughter's third grade classroom next year"
Oh, that's wonderful. Often that really is the very best way to deal with ADD.
"It was a drastic way to sove the problem..."
It's all in how you look at it.
Another way to look at it is that you spared the school district an expensive lawsuit and thus did them a real service.


SUBJECT:      Re: U.S. Dept. of Ed.  policy
Date:    95-06-29 12:18:50 EDT    FROM:      Dans312

June 14,l994 the US. . Dept of Education issued a response to an inquiry
dated March 14,l994.  The letter covers a wide range of issues concerning
A,D,D. and the responsibilities of the school.I am trying  to obtain this
letter to use in my meeting with the school district.  Can anyone help. Dans
312


SUBJECT:      Re: U.S. Dept. of Ed.  policy
Date:    95-06-29 20:58:12 EDT    FROM:      Ratatat

Dan,

You might try calling the National Information Center for Children and Youth with Disabilities (NICHCY) in Washington, D.C.  They are a wealth of information.  1-800-545-5583.
You might also check with your state's Protection and Advocacy Office to see if they have reference to these communications.
I, too, will check with a contact I have to see if I can learn where to get
copies.  I will let you know.  If you find out first, please let me know


SUBJECT:      TS with ADHD
Date:    95-08-16 14:40:43 edt    FROM:      Feather460

Hi.....I am so new to this area.....not with TS and ADHD but with the concept of home schooling....
My son, going into the 8th grade, will be at school half days and homeschooled the other half.  We are a bit nervous about this and can  use all the support we can get.  He will be frinished with a toutor/teacher three hours a week.  So my main job...I think.... will be to over see the work he does....not to assign the work.  We are still in the process of settin up his schedule.....I will, hopfully, know more tomorrow.  If you have any suggestions to get us started, I would be ever so grateful.  I am not even sure when the toutor/teacher will begin.  I know I will have to take one step at a time, if only for Evans sake (my son).  would also appreciate any ideas on his ad in staying on task and on being patien with him.
Thanks so
much,
Lori E. Dunn  ^feather^

SUBJECT:    Re:TS with ADHD
Date:    95-09-02 14:42:29 edt    FROM:      Valsudur

I am not familiar with TS, so can't address that issue.  But I tend to think that it is probably better for the family following your suggest to perform most of the work checking and re-inforcement/helping of work assigned by others.  You will get a feel as to how to suggest modifications or speeding up the material if necessary.
As for staying on track, a quiet place free of distractions and probably a
few verbal reminders.

SUBJECT:      Re:TS with ADHD
Date:    95-09-03 12:59:26 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<I know I will have to take one step at a time, if only for Evans sake (my
son).  would also appreciate any ideas on his ad in staying on task and on
being patien with him.  >>
Do you have a copy of the CHADD Educator's Manual?  You might find it very handy, both for yourself and for the school.  There are lots of pointers about accommodating these special children.  You can order it for about $10 from 1-800-545-5583.


SUBJECT:      Moving to a new state
Date:    95-09-11 20:17:47 edt    FROM:      COOKIEM2U

I just recently moved from Massachusetts to Virginia.  My 12 year old son has been on an IEP for 3 years for LD and ADD.  The Fairfax Co. school system is trying to tell me that they don't have to follow the valid IEP from Mass. and he has to be approved to be placed in the Special Ed. program.  I talked to the area Special Ed. person and got him placed in the program but he isn't really being given help in the classroom.  Any advice you can give me will be appreciated.  He will be going through the 3 year testing in about a week.  Should I leave him on his medicine or take him off of it during testing?
Also, the last school we were at had a resource room but so far this school doesn't offer on.  Can I ask for one to be established?  HELP.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Moving to a new state
Date:    95-09-11 22:31:06 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<He will be going through the 3 year testing in about a week.  Should I
leave him on his medicine or take him off of it during testing?  Also, the
last school we were at had a resource room but so far this school doesn't
offer on.  Can I ask for one to be established?  HELP.>>
I can't stress often enough how helpful the CHADD Educator's Manual is for parents who are faced with situations such as yours.  Is there a CHADD for Fairfax County?  They should be able to answer questions specific to the rules in their area.  I do think that it is, unfortunately, correct that your child has to be re-approved for special ed in a new state.  I don't know why they can't start with the results from his last testing, especially if the measure were standard.
Whether or not your child qualifies for LD special ed services, he does have rights under Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1975 if he has a valid diagnosis for ADD.  This is a civil rights law - not an education law, and it applies equally wherever you are.  The qualifications are dictated by the federal government, not the states (somebody - correct me if I am wrong).  The school is obligated to draw up a plan of accommodations to directly meet the needs of your child in their school under this civil rights law.
Did you know that CHADD is having an important Annual International
Conference that will go on for three days in Washington, DC from November 9
through 11?  Anyone can register and attend, though it is slightly less
expensive for CHADD members.  You can get information from CHADD headquarters
at:    1-305-587-4050 in Plantation, FL.

SUBJECT:    Re:Moving to a new state
Date:    95-09-11 23:51:47 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"The Fairfax Co. school system is trying to tell me that they don't have to follow the valid IEP from Mass. and he has to be approved to be placed in the Special Ed. program. "
This is true. Each state sets its own standards (believe it or not... it is *so* frustrating to parents!)
First have him tested as scheduled. Then the IEP committee (including you) determines what is likely to be  best for him. If he did well with Resource Room help before that clearly doesn't change just because he moves to another state.
You can't insist on *exactly* the way they did it in MA, but you can insist
that he be kept out of a special class if it isn't necessary. Then they
*must* provide less-restrictive services for him.

SUBJECT:    Re: New principal
Date:    95-09-12 15:54:09 edt    FROM:      CATHGR8

My daughter was just given the same teacher for 5th grade as she had for 3rd.
Third grade was a nightmare for her.  This teacher was part of a team, and
the other teacher had a personality clash with Alison.  Beyond that, her
homework varied nightly, and was open-ended and poorly explained, Alison fell
asleep in class, and her reading went from a year behind to a year and three
months behind over the school year.  In 4th grade, with a very structured
teacher, she made great gains, loved school.  Since the district rotated
principals, the new one says they all agreed the old principals would make
class placements, and the new ones wouldn't change anyone for at least two
weeks.  This seems very unfair to a kid with ADHD, who does have a 504, but
it doesn't address teacher assignments.  Do I go to the superintendent, or
just wait, and make her switch after two weeks to a new class?

SUBJECT:    Re: New
principal
Date:    95-09-12 23:46:15 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

I don't think it will kill her for two weeks. The main thing is that she knows you're pulling for her.
Personally I think it's unconscionable for a principal to knowingly put a child with an IEP or 504 with a teacher with whom he or she has had considerable difficulty.
A principal tried to tell us he was going to put our younger daughter with a teacher our older one had had (for one quarter, until we pulled her out of the school).
We told him we would come to no parent conferences and refuse all report cards, and not to call... he changed his mind.
I just don't know what gets into these administrators sometimes.

SUBJECT:    Re:
New principal
Date:    95-09-13 06:07:58 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<In 4th grade, with a very structured teacher, she made great gains, loved
school.>>
We all KNOW that the teacher who knows how to provide structure has more success with kids with ADD than others.  Make sure that you add this to your 504/IEP for the future.  The teacher is the first and most important part of a sucessful academic plan...so, I would think that you should be involved in the selection.
Knowing what you know about your child and this teacher, I would definitely
go for a change.  It is a looooooong year when a child has a wrong
teacher!

SUBJECT:      New principal update
Date:    95-09-13 15:11:37 edt    FROM:      CATHGR8

Thanks for your insights. Today I spoke to the school district's 504 rep.  He
told me he can't tell the principal to switch Alison's teacher, but advised
me "off the record" that if both Alison and I frequently raise the issue and
make it clear how unhappy she is, perhaps the principal would be inspired to
move sooner.  He also said he'd call the principal and tell her I had spoken
to him, so she would get the idea that I won't just give up.

SUBJECT:    Re:Moving
to a new state
Date:    95-09-13 21:58:26 edt    FROM:      JMBG33

I have a friend who is moving to a small area in St Francois County in Mo.
She has a daughter, who has been diagnosed with ADHD/BD in IL.. She has been
pleased with the MDC conferences and IEP's that were generated in IL. Just
what should she expect in Mo. regarding provision for her child's need for
special education? Think she told me the school dist. may not have any
diagnosed ADHD or BD students. Just how will they provide for her?? Would
appreciate an immediate response, please email me if possible or leave your
response here, Thanks much.

SUBJECT:    Re: New principal
Date:    95-09-14 01:59:39 edt    FROM:      Valsudur

Go to the superintendant.  Write a letter to both the school principle and the superintendant asking for a change in classroom placement and why you feel that is important, if the school is normally hostile and unwilling to work with you.
They might make you wait the 2 weeks anyway.  But depending on whether the
school works well with you or not, they could just leave her and drag it
out.

SUBJECT:      Re: New principal
Date:    95-09-14 02:01:04 edt    FROM:      Valsudur
PS:    I always talked to the princple, particularly at the end of the year to
reinforce what type of class my son did best in and was, at least until middle school, lucky enough to get the fairly strict and systematic teachers.


SUBJECT:      help
Date:    95-09-14 18:58:51 edt    FROM:      RAdesotoma

I have been teaching an LD 3/4 grade for three years, before that I was a resource room teacher for a few years.  I've been teaching for 8 years. The school is located in a poor neighborhood in Boston.
My class this year consists of 12 students, 3 girls and 9 boys.  I have four children in the class who are having and extremely hard time adjusting.
The girl of the group is obviously ADHD.  She can not sit in her chair.
She is constantly talks because she repeats everything aloud as a reinforcement.  She can not admit to anything she does, even when she knows I saw her.  Her work in class is minimal.
One boy is very aggresive.  He is extremely impulsive.  His instant reaction to even the small incident is to lash out physically.  Today he stabbed another child with a pencil in the shoulder.  He has not responded well to incentive charts .  He also swears and throws things. Even though he is nine years old he doesn't even know the sounds of many letters of the alphabet.  My gut impression is that this child has sat in a pricipals office alot.
My third child is a boy.  He can not sit at all for any period of time.  All his work is incomplete. Actually he only does one or two items per day.  He can not even follow the simplest one step directions.  And has difficulties getting along with any of the other children.  It is obvious with this child that he does want to please me, but just can't do it.  In his school last year teachers alternated him evey 45 mins.
The last boy, has been having problems for 1 year. There is no support from home.  Homework is never done.  He can do the work, but he looks at it and puts it aside.  He constantly fights with the first boy.  His mother only gives him his medication whenever she wants.  While talking to a parent this week he climbed on a desk and started dancing.  I was in the room not less than 12 feet away.  He ripped up his incentive chart the first day.
I'm frantic!!!!!  I need to find some way of including these
children without leaving the rest of my class in turmoil.  This is only the
second week of school.

SUBJECT:    Re:help
Date:    95-09-14 23:04:35 edt    FROM:      Oynk oynk

I have been in your situation and even survived.  It is possible.  Here are some basic things I did that worked.  For the child that can't complete any work, I have been pretty successful with training buddies to help such children.  The buddies job is to help them concentrate.  Essentially for small period of time, they sit with the child, point to each problem and say, OK, now do this one.  When the child gets distracted, they put him back on track.  It is not a bossy relationship, in fact usually I set a time limit, and if they can get their work done together in that amount of time, they can do something "fun" with the remaining time.  This also builds some friendships for kids who don't make many friends.
As for the kid who is all over the place.  I have often made a taped square on the floor out of masking tape (sometimes it is pretty big too.)  As far as I am concerned, the child can prance about as much as they want, but they must stay within the square.  It is often the first step in setting limits.
If any of this helps, let me know (you can email me) I have lots of other
things that have worked, but each kid is an individual (sigh).  Will help if
I can.

SUBJECT:      Re:help
Date:    95-09-15 08:58:57 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<If any of this helps, let me know (you can email me) I have lots of other
things that have worked, but each kid is an individual (sigh).  Will help if
I can.>
I like your suggestions, and wish that they could be shared openly on this
public forum for us all to read?  Any chance you can post here, then copy to
e-mail?  I would love to see what you have to say.

SUBJECT:    Re:help
Date:    95-09-17 16:21:24 edt    FROM:      Valsudur

Whats the public forum?
Any chance of getting the school psychologist to intervene also, and perhaps talk to the parents about getting these kids some help?


SUBJECT:      Help
Date:    95-09-17 18:33:40 edt    FROM:      SChinskey

I need help for a workshop for elementary school teacher.
Please send me anything useful.

Suzanne

SUBJECT:      ADHD Helppppp
Date:    95-09-17 22:53:03 edt    FROM:      Phoomph

If anyone can help me prepare my IQ gifted hyper ADHD child for kindergarten next year?Please feel free to send any info..email.Also is their a chat room for this?I have my child on meds and I have some Q's about that too.
Thank you V. Rhoads     Screen name Phoomph

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD Helppppp
Date:    95-09-18 01:12:06 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Poomph right now there's no room for more chats in this area. However, if you
use keyword IMH you'll find an area about ADD. I host a chat on Saturdays at
4PM Eastern (3PM Central, 2PM Mountain, 1PM Pacific) called ADD/LD
Schoolhouse. Those are just the kinds of issues we discuss.

SUBJECT:    Re:help
Date:    95-09-18 06:00:38 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<Whats the public forum?>>
These message boards are read by the public, hence the reason I called them a public forum!  Sorry if one thought I mean a live chat.


SUBJECT:      Re:ADHD Helppppp
Date:    95-09-18 20:42:58 edt    FROM:      Oynk oynk

One of the most difficult things for many kindegarteners (especially ADD ones and gifted ones) is the incredible amount of time spent waaiiting....
You could begin working with your child about ways to sit still, and ways to wait.  A lot of people don't realize how hard it is for any child to sit and wait while each child gets a turn to wash their hands, or use the water fountain, or finish coloring a picture.  Better teachers keep this to a minimum, but it still seems to be a fact of life.  If you can begin helping your child learn to delay gratification it will help her a lot.  If you district allows it, you might get to visit different classes now, and see if you can find a teacher who seems to keep this to a minimum.
I have taught some of my older kids how to stay out of trouble by finding
interesting non-disruptive things to do during down time.  I don't know how
successful this would be with a younger child.  Good luck!

SUBJECT:    Concerned
parent
Date:    95-09-19 00:00:32 edt    FROM:      Mstens

Please help me!
Iam a very concerned parent of a very bright and active 8 year old. He has recently transfered to the public system and after one week his teacher is trying to classify himm as ADD. Ok he has a attetion problem and he daydreams but if kept on task he is very very bright! Please help I don't eant my son labled I just want him to have a normal 8 year old life .
Thanks ,
Mstens

SUBJECT:      Re:ADHD Helppppp
Date:    95-09-19 07:46:10 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<I have taught some of my older kids how to stay out of trouble by finding
interesting non-disruptive things to do during down time.>>
I always take my book with me when I know I will be waiting around...and if I can sit, then I take my planner and work on my notes and do list.


SUBJECT:      Re:Concerned parent
Date:    95-09-19 08:27:42 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<Iam a very concerned parent of a very bright and active 8 year old. He has
recently transfered to the public system and after one week his teacher is
trying to classify himm as ADD. Ok he has a attetion problem and he daydreams
but if kept on task he is very very bright! Please help I don't eant my son
labled I just want him to have a normal 8 year old life.>>
Teachers can be keen observers.  They see kids the same age as your child daily, and know what is developmentally appropriate behavior, and what is not.  That said, it is highly inappropriate for a teacher to "practice medicine without a license."   A comprehensive evaluation takes some time, includes many measures, scales, complete history, etc.... and is designed to reach diagnosis by the intensity and frequency of a specific set of symptoms.  Also it must be a process of elimination to be sure that what you are dealing with is ADD, and not either something else, or a combination of things.
If this were my child what I would do would be to ask the teacher for a very specific list of BEHAVIORS that she sees that she believes are not within what one might normally expect to see in kids the age of your child.  Then, so that I could eliminate what is NOT wrong, and identify what is happening, I would have a comprehensive evaluation done of my child with the best person I could find, who is up to date of ADD and LD.
Once there were complete (and again, this is not a five-minute thing), I would be able to then specifically address my child's needs.  But, first an evaluation.
Believe me, you would kick yourself later if it turns out that your child does have ADD or something else going on and your denied it or ignored it.  It only gets harder for them as they get older and as the school work gets more demanding.  I would feel I owe it to my child to do the best I can for them, as soon as I can.  The teacher may be way off base, but then, she could be right on target.  A comprehensive evaluation is the only way to know.
We all want our kids to be "normal" and have a life with no problems, but if your child does have special needs it is a disservice to them to deny them any help that might be available.
Please pursue this teacher's comments in a responsible, thorough way so that you KNOW absolutely what you are or are not dealing with.


SUBJECT:      Re:Concerned parent
Date:    95-09-19 14:42:25 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"Ok he has a attetion problem and he daydreams but if kept on task he is very very bright!"
The problem, as I see it, is that by eight he should have the ability to stay on task independently. The older he is, the more teachers will expect that of him and the less tolerance they will have for lack of ability to do that consistently.
If he does have ADD, then you and he both need to know it so he can learn how to live productively with it.
The older the child is, the less the responsibility falls to the teacher to keep the child on-task. If, say, a fourth grade teacher is to be expected to do this, she needs to know why. She needs to know why the child has this difficulty, and a solid plan needs to be in place to help him develop that skill at the rate he can.
If he does have ADD it's not really something that should be ignored, in my
opinion.

SUBJECT:      Re:Concerned parent
Date:    95-09-19 14:47:52 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

" That said, it is highly inappropriate for a teacher to "practice medicine
without a license." "
Sure... but that has to be kept in perspective. The teacher is within her rights and acting responsibly to 1) raise a concern and 2) refer a child for evaluation.
In the referral process the evaluating team will ask her what her concerns are-and of course any sensible parent will also. If the teacher says "He looks a lot like other students I've taught who turned out to have ADD" the parent can easily repeat this as "She's trying to classify him as ADD."
I think staying calm is called for. An evaluation may be called for; one week into a new school is kind of fast for a referral, but not too soon for an observant teacher to have valid concerns.
Parents always have the option of challenging diagnoses and/or seeking a second opinion on their own. When the second opinion disagrees with the school's conclusions often the school can be held liable to pay for the second opinion. If the second opinion agrees with the school then the parent still has a lot of additional information with which to work, and probably more confidence in the diagnosis.
I think teachers have to be free to raise their concerns, and since they aren't counselors or social workers they may not always word those concerns perfectly.
This parent might want to get a copy of CHADD's EDUCATOR'S MANUAL (from Caset Assoc., 800-545-5583) as it will map out for her exactly what ADD is and isn't, and what her child's rights are in this situation.
This child is lucky to have such a concerned mother.

SUBJECT:    Ohio Forum on
ADHD/Ritalin
Date:    95-09-20 20:03:41 edt    FROM:      Rhendri

The Lorain, Ohio, Morning Journal, Rainbow Babies and Childrens Hospital of Cleveland and seven other organizations will sponsor a community forum on ADHD and the use of Ritalin at 7 p.m. Thursday, Sept. 28, at Lorain County Community College, 1005 Abbe Road North, Elyria. The campus is less than a mile south of I-90, about 30 miles west of Cleveland.
The program will feature a panel with a parent, a teacher, a school psychologist, a clinical psychologist, a pediatrician and a pediatric neurologist. A Q&A will follow. The program is FREE and parents, teachers and other professionals are urged to attend.
For more information, send e-mail to [e-mail]


SUBJECT:      Fairfax Co. VA school system
Date:    95-09-21 22:34:00 edt    FROM:      COOKIEM2U

Just trying to find out if anyone out there has had any experience with this school system and IEP's.  If so please email me.  Maybe we can share ideas.  I feel like I'm dealing with a brick wall.  The Special Ed teacher that my son has tries to teach all the kids the same way, with no special consideration for each IEP and each childs needs.
CookieM2U

SUBJECT:      Reading
Date:    95-09-21 23:34:50 edt    FROM:      JTRANDALL

My son has ADD/LD, eleven years old, reading at second grade and has math difficulties.  He has been in special ed classes about 40% of the time.
Although he is not a behavior problem he is in a special ed class full of
behavior problem kids.  His doctor and I would like to get him out of that
enviorment before he has a behavior problem.  I have asked for an IEP meeting
and when I do something like this the school looks to me for ideas on how to
handle his reading problems in class.  HELP?  Any ideas (e.g. audio tapes,
teacher reading instructions, another student "peer" reading).  What seems to
work with boys?  Thanks in advance.

SUBJECT:    Re:Reading
Date:    95-09-22 10:36:48 edt    FROM:      COOKIEM2U

Something things that worked with reading last year for my son....
1.    For book reports he was allowed to choice a book that was more on his reading level.
2.    For novels that was done by the whole class, the teacher or helper would tape the chapters for him.  He could then listen to them and try to read along.  He didn't have all the chapters taped, usually every other one. On the chapters that weren't taped we had him read them aloud, and sometimes even read a page and then he would read a page.  This worked great as reading is a great frustration for him.
I hope that this helps you or at least gives you an idea.  It is great that the school system is willing to listen and try new things.
Good Luck

SUBJECT:      Re:Fairfax Co. VA school system
Date:    95-09-22 12:59:23 edt    FROM:      BakerTerri

Hi : )
Is your son in with this teacher full time or is it a pull out program?  If so what % of the time is he with her? Have you been able to "share" any books with her yet???? I live in the county next to Fairfax. A freind of mine has 2 children within the Fairfax district with IEPs.  I would love to share ideas pls feel free to e-mail me.
Terri

SUBJECT:      Sec. 504
Date:    95-09-22 17:43:48 edt    FROM:      Higkrem

Our PAC team has begun to handle the 504 referrals. We are the liasion between the student and the teacher. Does anyone have in place an effective process to implement accomodations without alienating our colleagues?

SUBJECT:
Re:    Sec. 504
Date:    95-09-22 20:02:29 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Give them several suggestions for each difficulty and let the teacher choose the one he or she is most comfortable with.
Also stock the school with resources that you can refer to. Then they'll at least know you're not flying by the seat of your pants and making them up as you go along.
If you use keyword IMH you'll get to the IMH library. In that library (perhaps 100 or more files down) you'll find a file titled ADD: LOST IN THE CROWD. It includes an explanation of how ADD affects education as well as what can be done about it. Be *sure* to open it in your word processor, as it is too long for AOL's text editor and you won't get it all.
At the end is a list of possible accommodations, arranged by how likely they are to prevent the child from developing independence and other work-related skills.
Let me know if you have trouble finding it.

SUBJECT:    Re:Fairfax Co. VA school
system
Date:    95-09-22 21:59:57 edt    FROM:      Oynk oynk

Please include me on what you are emailing.  I am hearing that Fairfax's computerized IEPs are so identical that the Virginia DOE is considering not allowing any computerized IEPs to be used anywhere it the state.  I am very interested in finding out about this.
Thanx

SUBJECT:      Re:Fairfax Co. VA school system
Date:    95-09-23 12:07:57 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

" am hearing that Fairfax's computerized IEPs are so identical that the Virginia DOE is considering not allowing any computerized IEPs to be used anywhere it the state."
That's a real risk, of course... but I personally know a resource teacher who wrote nearly the same IEP *by hand* for eleven students, all in one week. The only things that varied were test scores (I know she really tested them; I saw her do that.)
She then placed all eleven students (who were all in the same grade) in her tiny working space at the same time and gave them all the same work to do.  Problems with this: it was all workbook-type work and it was phonics-some students in there *didn't need it!* two needed *math* support.
Her *supervisor* caught it and made her redo all the IEPs. Then she still had the students in at that time slot (she had done it to appease two teachers who did everything they could to not cooperate), but with three or four things going on at once. She soon had behavior problems to cope with.
My point is that this kind of abuse happens with technology-and also
without it. Parents need to know their child's educational needs well enough
that *they* can protest such an IEP instead of signing.

SUBJECT:    Re; Schools for
Neur. Impaired
Date:    95-09-23 19:39:34 edt    FROM:      Lodot

I am looking for schools, either public or private that can best serve a 10 year old with Tourettes Syn., ADD and short term memory loss.  The schools can be anywhere on the east coast of the U.S.  Any information will be greatly appreciated.  Please post to LODOT.  Thank you.


SUBJECT:      Re:Fairfax Co. VA school system
Date:    95-09-23 20:52:52 edt    FROM:      COOKIEM2U

Parents are protesting the way things are done.  There are two law suits against Fairfax Co. as of now.  Just went in for my son's IEP and it was hand written.  But the special ed teacher is still teaching all 5 in the same way every day in the Skills class......but we are working on getting it changed.
It is real easy to say that a person needs to do all these things and we are
trying, but it is hard when you must fight the school system all the
way.

SUBJECT:      Re:Fairfax Co. VA school system
Date:    95-09-23 22:52:54 edt    FROM:      Oynk oynk

I am sorry to hear that this is happening to you and your children.  Good IEPs can be handwritten or computerized.  COOKIE is absolutely right, parent's are the ones who can bring the changes.  Please make sure that the "red tape people" understand that y'all are protesting the asembly line IEPs, and not the technology that was abused to produce them.
The savings in time alone of not having to hand write IEPs for each student
has allowed me to individualize much more on each IEP, as well as saving me
hours of time that I can use for better teaching.   Unfortunately people can
find a way to abuse anything.  Good luck to all of you!

SUBJECT:    Re:Re; Schools
for Neur. Impaire
Date:    95-09-24 09:41:15 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<I am looking for schools, either public or private that can best serve a 10 year old with Tourettes Syn., ADD and short term memory loss.
The schools can be anywhere on the east coast of the U.S.  Any
information will be greatly appreciated.  Please post to LODOT.>>
There is a guide for private independent schools for children with special
needs published by Peterson's.  You can probably find it in your public
library.

SUBJECT:      Re:Fairfax Co. VA school system
Date:    95-09-24 12:20:13 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"The savings in time alone of not having to hand write IEPs for each student has allowed me to individualize much more on each IEP, as well as saving me hours of time that I can use for better teaching."
Yes. I had that experience also. Just having a template set up to enter the test scores helped *so much* (and undoubtedly reduced the rate of clerical errors made by me).
As for the skills class, it depends on what's being taught and who is in there whether it's appropriate to teach them all the same way or not.
Sometimes that is appropriate. But-that said-I'm not surprised to hear
of lawsuits.

SUBJECT:      Newspaper series on line
Date:    95-09-24 13:43:48 edt    FROM:      Rhendri

The text of The Lorain, Ohio, Morning Journal's "Generation Rx" series on ADHD and the use of Ritalin is now available on line at Lorain County Free-Net.
Anyone with a computer, modem and communications software can get a free copy by calling 216-233-5929 or 216-366-9753 and signing on as a guest. No password is required. The lines support speeds of up to 14.4 baud.
Once you are connected, select Item 15 (The Science Center) on the main menu, followed by Item 2 for "Generation Rx" on the first sub-menu. The series is presented there in six parts, including the first day main story, first day sidebar, all of day 2, all of day 3, all of day 4 and all of the Q&As.
There is also a choice (Item 8 on the "Generation Rx" sub-menu) that will allow you to download the entire text without paging to capture it on your screen or to a file on your disk. It takes less than a minute at 14.4 baud.  The series, which seeks to explain the issues faced by children, parents, educators and other professionals without taking a stand for or against Ritalin, was published June 25-28, 1995. Original copies of the newspapers for those dates are sold out.
We welcome your questions and comments on the series. You may address them electronically to [e-mail] or via the U.S. Postal Service to  The Morning Journal, 1657 Broadway, Lorain, OH 44052.
Richard D. Hendrickson, editorial page editor and "Generation Rx" project
director.

SUBJECT:      Re:Moving to a new state
Date:    95-09-24 15:44:10 edt    FROM:      LCuevas862

ASK for what your sons IEP says he needs.  It is the school district's responsibilty to meet the child's needs. if they refuse, go DUE PROCESS.
You'll win easily.  You have an IEP and your child is classified as needing
Sp. Ed. services.  The new school MUST follow the IEP that the child comes in
from no matter what state.  that is the law.

SUBJECT:    Re:Moving to a new state
Date:    95-09-24 21:58:50 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"The new school MUST follow the IEP that the child comes in from no matter what state.  that is the law."
I believe you are mistaken about that. IDEA allows each state to set its diagnostic standards individually. This means that a child who qualifies for services in one state may not be eligible when the child moves to a new state. In fact that happens quite frequently.
In addition the school district is not obligated to follow an IEP from
another state or even another district. They are obligated to determine,
first, the student's continued eligibility in the new residence state, and
then, write a new IEP, within a stated period of time.

SUBJECT:    Re:Newspaper
series on line
Date:    95-09-24 23:12:47 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Richard, I tried both numbers.
The first number connected at 9600 and did indeed require a password.
The second was constantly busy. Any other suggestions?

SUBJECT:    Re:Fairfax Co.
VA school system
Date:    95-09-25 11:16:22 edt    FROM:      BakerTerri

>>There are two law suits against Fairfax Co. as of now.  Just went in for my
son's IEP and it was hand written.<<
Cookie, I think that you bring up a really great point about IEP's in general- it really doesnt matter if they are hand written or computer generated- they need to be a working living document that can be used to effectivley teach the child.  You can type in 20 pages on "how to ....... " and if its not a workable solution its worthless - just paper.
If the teacher who is writting (or typing) up the IEP can use his or her skills to bring the child abilities to met the  goals that are listed on the IEP that should be what all parties are concerned about??


SUBJECT:      waiting and waiting for spec ed
Date:    95-09-25 20:36:36 edt    FROM:      C C SCHULZ

I have an eight year old son who was diagnosed with ADHD two years ago.  In
second grade the school decided that he qualified for special ed under the
"Other Health Imparments" catagory.  They told me that they would set up his
IEP first thing this year. Well here it is the fourth week of school, and
they havn't even started.  The school says that they have to hire a new
Special Ed teacher first. If they knew that they were going to need another
teacher, why didn't they take care of this last fall?  Am I being too
impatient?  Or am I being given the run around again?

SUBJECT:    Re:waiting and
waiting for spec
Date:    95-09-25 21:32:58 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

They should bring in another special educator from another school to write the IEP, and the school should find a way to help this child until they can hire a special education teacher.
Many, many children with ADD/ADHD are helped without any special education at all-by the regular school staff.
Do you have CHADD's "EDUCATOR'S MANUAL?" It lists many things that can be
done within the regular classroom.

SUBJECT:    Re:waiting and waiting for spec
Date:    95-09-25 22:00:33 edt    FROM:      C C SCHULZ

The principle said that he could go down to the EBD room if he's having a
rough time, and she claims that they're hiring a para-professional just for
him, but says that the hiring is done at the district level and they have no
spare people to help in the class room.  I havn't been able to get ahold of
anyone at C.H.A.D.D.,  all I ever get is a recording asking me to send money
to sign up.  I don't know what C.H.A.D.D. has to offer, and can't afford to
spend money on something that might not be of any help.

SUBJECT:    Help with ADD
Date:    95-09-26 03:14:32 edt    FROM:      CodiCoyote

To whom it may concern:
I am taking a special education class and have to do a presentation on ADD.  My focus needs to be what a teacher can expect when educating a student with ADD.  Any information would be highly appreciated.  Thank you very much for your time.
[e-mail]

SUBJECT:      Re:Help with ADD
Date:    95-09-26 08:51:34 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

To get the CHADD Educator's Manual call 1-800-545-5583. This is the number of CHADDs distributor.  They can send it quickly.  It costs all of $10 plus shipping and handling.  If there is only ONE publication that I were allowed to own, this would be it!


SUBJECT:      Re:Help with ADD
Date:    95-09-26 08:58:43 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

Coyote, you might want to check out a couple of books:
Taming the Dragons:  Real Help for Real School Problems by Susan Setley 1-800-782-2490.  This is excellent and give lots of concrete information and ideas of how to reach children with challenges.
How to Reach and Teach the ADD/ADHD Child by Sandra Reif (available in bookstores)
Also, check out the Special Education Library.  There is a comprehensive list
of books on ADD for Parents, Schools, Teachers and Professionals.  The
"target" of each book is included in the listings.

SUBJECT:    Re:NEW FOLDER
Date:    95-09-26 12:08:57 edt    FROM:      PB92

I am supposed to update regular teachers on recent changes that they should
be aware of in I.D.E.A., and PL504.  Have any changes occurred in the last 2
years that I should be aware of.  Help!! Thanks.PB92

SUBJECT:    Re:waiting and
waiting for spec
Date:    95-09-27 00:01:04 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

When you call CHADD just press O for Operator and you'll get a real person.
:)

SUBJECT:      CHADD and IDEA
Date:    95-09-27 20:34:46 edt    FROM:      SPECEDPAR

I am real involved in theIDEA  reauthorization. National CHADD is doing
nothing on getting the information out to the parents on how the proposed
changes will effect the ADD/ADHD child.  If these changes become law, I'm
more scared for our child with ADHD than our children with Down Syndrome or
our other son whom is Deaf.  Call the National CHADD and ask them why they
are not getting the information to the local chapters?  I was told that the
information I had was wrong by the National CHADD.  I know to a T, what is
happening in Washington with this issue.  Parents we are in terrible trouble
if these changes become law.  My advice to you is to get out of the system,
or do not put your child in special education IDEA.

SUBJECT:    Re:CHADD and IDEA
Date:    95-09-27 21:32:40 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

Thank you for the alert.  I must say that your way of communicating is a bit
alarmist.  Please tell us in detail, specifically what we need to be
concerned about as parent of children with ADHD, how they will be impacted by
the IDEA, and what you know that CHADD doesn't!

SUBJECT:    Re:CHADD and IDEA
Date:    95-09-28 15:35:56 edt    FROM:      SPECEDPAR

I really don't mind telling you but it would be interesting what CHADD tells
you.  I believe I saw the phone number some where on AOL.  Call the national
and ask them about the changes in safeguards. such as "stay-put" and the
issue on disruption and in-appropiate behaviors and how these changes will
effect the ADHD child.  If you do not get an answer let me know and I'll fax
the information to you.  The parents that know about these changes are all
scared....... If your child is perfect without any behaviors you could be
fine.  I don't know why the CHADD isn't getting the information out.  I'll
check back to AOL... but you need to know and understand then pass this
information on.

SUBJECT:      Re:CHADD and IDEA
Date:    95-09-28 15:40:31 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

I will be attending the CHADD Conference very soon in Washington DC.  I have
a feeling this will be the perfect venue to seek the answers to some of these
questions.

SUBJECT:      Re:waiting and waiting for spec
Date:    95-10-01 00:17:56 edt    FROM:      DYSPRAXIA

Call you state Protection and Advocacy office!  Get you state's rules and reg.s for special education.
The school district is in Violatio but as long as they correct after being
contacted by the OCR they are not in any trouble.

SUBJECT:    Re:waiting and
waiting for spec
Date:    95-10-01 16:51:38 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

That's true... but if the goal is to solve the problem, then OCR can be a good path to follow. It's fast and costs little or nothing.

SUBJECT:
Re:    principal won't transfer
Date:    95-10-02 19:15:20 edt    FROM:      CATHGR8

O.K. folks, now what?   Today, after three weeks of waiting at the principal's behest, the principal told my daughter on the playground that "We just won't be doing any transfers this year."  Then she called me at home, and commented "Why did she want to change?  Does she have friends in another classroom?  When I repeated my prior info that this was her third grade teacher, and she had not done well then, and that I didn't think Alison's learning style worked with this teacher's, she suggested a meeting with the teacher to work that out.  Meanwhile, the teacher called me, and said the principal told her I wanted a meeting.  She then told me that Alison is having trouble in her class, that she remembers some of the problems from third grade, that she is having problems socially, etc.  She actually wrote a note to the teacher two weeks ago, and said she wanted to kill herself because of the problems,but the teacher has still never mentioned it to me (Alison did).  I don't think she's serious, but she sure is crying for help!  Since she has a 504, can the principal just include her in a blanket decision not to allow transfers?  Can I request a new teacher by asking for a 504 revision?  (By the way, since her 4th grade teacher accommodated her well, I didn't have many specifics in the plan, and do I ever regret that now.)  Can I just refuse to sign report cards and be a pain in the a--?

SUBJECT:
Re:    principal won't transfer
Date:    95-10-02 21:47:36 edt    FROM:      Oynk oynk

If you can convene an IEP meeting, and get it in the IEP,  (I don't know who
your state mandates be on the IEP committee..for us it is the parent,
principal, spec. ed teacher, reg. ed teacher, student as appropriate plus
whoever else gets dragged along), then they have to do it.  Worth a
shot?!

SUBJECT:      Re:principal won't transfer
Date:    95-10-02 22:14:16 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

I suggest you ask for a copy of the note. INSIST on a copy of the note.
Then tell the principal that either he/she can solve it, or you will take the
copy of the note and go over his/her head.

SUBJECT:    Re:principal won't transfer
Date:    95-10-03 08:32:56 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<She actually wrote a note to the teacher two weeks ago, and said she wanted
to kill herself because of the problems,but the teacher has still never
mentioned it to me (Alison did).>>
If this kid isn't trying to send a message....
The teacher not reporting the content of this note may very well be in violation of state laws.  Here, a teacher is REQUIRED to report such knowledge immediately as a safety issue.
I agree with Susan, that you GET THE NOTE, go to the principal and tell him
that it is time for a move.  This teacher is too irresponsible to have your
child in the class - plus, you can point out, that by not reporting something
like that, and if your child had followed through, the school, the teacher
and the principal would be personally liable because they did not take action
and report your daughter's intentions immediately to you!

SUBJECT:    Re:principal
won't transfer
Date:    95-10-05 23:00:11 edt    FROM:      COOKIEM2U

Letters to the school board work rather nicely too.

SUBJECT:    Re:principal won't
transfer
Date:    95-10-06 00:29:01 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Especially when they include lots of documentable points, like notes where
children write about wanting to kill themselves-that note withheld from
the parents.

SUBJECT:      Re:principal won't transfer
Date:    95-10-06 15:06:31 edt    FROM:      JBSEP

in response to writing a letter to the school board. i find  the school board in our city is terribly interested. I hope the one in yours is.
janice

SUBJECT:      Re:waiting and waiting for spec
Date:    95-10-07 02:36:04 edt    FROM:      DYSPRAXIA

OCR is not always fast, and schools systems can become "unhappy" with a parent who files an OCR complaint.  Sometimes it is easier to hire an advocate, particularly one with MSEd qualifications to assisit you.

SUBJECT:
Re:    waiting and waiting for spec
Date:    95-10-09 02:08:31 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Depends on what you mean by "fast." OCR is a *lot* faster than a lawsuit.
In my experience a parent who brings an advocate will make a school nearly as unhappy as one who files a complaint with OCR. Either way the parent is trying to force the school to do that which it does not want to do.
I'm not saying never use an advocate... these things blow over eventually,
and sometimes bringing in people from outside the system-whether it's OCR,
an advocate or whatever-is necessary.

SUBJECT:    new re:principal won't
transfer
Date:    95-10-09 15:30:03 edt    FROM:      CATHGR8

Well, I wrote a letter to the principal, with a copy to the District asking
for a new 504, attaching a list of accommodations I want.  I also mentioned
my concern about the note, and said doesn't it at least merit a talk with the
school psychologist?  Then I said I felt that if the decision not to transfer
was based on something other than her needs,  I would be asking for a due
process hearing.  Got a message on Friday, saying "the 504 Committee will be
meeting on the 13th at 7:30 a.m." No mention whether I was to attend. I am
going to call the Advocate today to help me figure out what I have to do. At
least something is finally happening!

SUBJECT:    Re:new re:principal won't transf
Date:    95-10-09 17:04:33 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"Got a message on Friday, saying "the 504 Committee will be meeting on the 13th at 7:30 a.m."
Be there. Bring a photo of your child in a small frame to stand up on the
table. It helps people remember who it is they're talking about and in the
process makes the child look more like a real person, and not some abstract
problem to solve.

SUBJECT:      Re:Concerned parent
Date:    95-10-09 20:29:39 edt    FROM:      MDiveronic

Ask for direction from the school guidance consular in having a fair diagnosis made.  If the school will offer testing, take advantage of that.  If private testing is necessary, I would encourage you to explore all roads.
I teach ADD and ADHD students in the fourth and fifth grade.  Believe me, the
"bad kid" label is worse!!!!!!!!!!!

SUBJECT:    Alternative Education
Date:    95-10-09 20:34:44 edt    FROM:      MDiveronic

I have 27 students in Alternative Education Class.  We already use computers for a major portion of instruction and practice of skills.  I am looking for other ideas for down time for my energetic and impulsive students.  Since 16 of these students are ADD, ADHD, they should be fairly simple tasks and interesting.  Anyone have a "bag of tricks" they wish to share?

SUBJECT:
Re:    Alternative Education
Date:    95-10-10 00:25:11 edt    FROM:      Oynk oynk

You don't say what age students, but I used to take my middle school students outside and march the multiplication tables in cadence.  (7*7 is mighty fine, 7*7 is 49...)
They loved it, when one of them missed one, they had to do push ups, or take
a lap (in good fun, it was NOT punishment).  It burned some energy, got us
outside, and really was fun.  You could probably adapt to other subjects that
lend themselves to rote memorization.

SUBJECT:    Re:Concerned parent
Date:    95-10-10 01:52:13 edt    FROM:      Cindi87271

Dear MSTNS:
Please, PLEASE don't refuse to dig deeper into your son's welfare - I know that initially it is scary. There are a lot of things that we, as parents want for our children. One of them is undoubtedly for them to have a happy, healthy life. But if your son does indeed have ADD, ignoring the possibility does not do him justice. I have an 8 year old son who was diagnosed this summer with ADD. He is a very bright and active boy. He also struggles with school and has since kindergarten. For years I thought maybe he just needed to try harder to pay attention. He can be very frustrating to us at times - you can tell him to go in his room, make his bed and put all his dirty clothes in the basket. He would go to his room as I had asked, partially make his bed, and then get "lost" doing something else. His doctor put him on Ritalin, and I also wanted him tested for any learning disabilities (they are common with ADD/ADHD children).It turns out he did have learning disabilities and requires extra help with school. Fortunately, he is only pulled out of his regular class for 1 hour a day. During that time, his resource teacher works with him. I also work with him at home. It was a very real concern to me that he not be "labeled" as stupid or whatever. So far, we have not had any problems. In fact, his self esteem has gone up because now he knows WHY he couldn't get from point A to point B without distractions. I have explained to him that noone is perfect - we all have difficulties with certain things. But to me, not seeking help for something that is so treatable is really a shame. Another point - his IQ is average! This goes to show that ADD children are not stupid - they need alternative ways of learning. They are capable of so much more than you will ever see if they are not treated.  I hope I have not come across to strong - I just love my son dearly and am amazed at the difference in him now that we are "dealing" with this.  Good luck!
Cindi


SUBJECT:
Re:    Alternative Education
Date:    95-10-10 08:25:27 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"They loved it, when one of them missed one, they had to do push ups, or take a lap (in good fun, it was NOT punishment). "
Ohhh... you *really* would have had me on your case over that. That's
humiliating. I'm sry... really burns me up!

SUBJECT:    Re:Alternative Education
Date:    95-10-10 22:16:35 edt    FROM:      Oynk oynk


<"They loved it, when one of them missed one, they had to do push ups, or take a lap (in good fun, it was NOT punishment). "
Ohhh... you *really* would have had me on your case over that. That's
humiliating. I'm sry... really burns me up!>
Sorry, I guess that looks kind of bad in print.  Really, the bunch I had was
very close knit group, very supporting and protective of one another.  I did
my share of push-ups and laps with them when I goofed too.  I promise you
that I would never humiliate a child.  The students themselves came up with
the idea, and I think some of them kind of liked showing off their physical
prowess.  Well... I guess you had to be there...

SUBJECT:    Re:Alternative
Education
Date:    95-10-11 07:07:10 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

Oynk,
I can understand how much fun this multiplication exercise seemed to be, but
what happened with the kids who had gross motor skills problems?  I guess as
long as it was done in a totally goofy way it would be fine, but I have one
kid who would've hated it, yet gone along because of group pressure.  His
negative thoughts would have blocked any learning that could've been
had.

SUBJECT:      Re:Alternative Education
Date:    95-10-11 08:42:26 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"I promise you that I would never humiliate a child."
I believe you. But .... what would become of my daughter, who still has OT
problems after all these years,and who *hates* running (I would too if I were
so bad at it)? What about the kids who don't have any "prowess" in this area
to show off?

SUBJECT:      Re:Alternative Education
Date:    95-10-11 23:11:25 edt    FROM:      Oynk oynk

Susan and Ratatat are correct, and something like this would cerainly not be for everyone, especially children who have motor skill problems or who would just do something they hated in order to fit in.    Like I said, it worked for this particular group.  (And it was a kind of goofy silly thing. )  I have to admit, I called several of them up (They are in their 20s now) just to check.. and they all remembered it favorably.
I know I am probably opening a can of worms...but, I guess I am wondering if I would have gotten the same responses to saying that students who missed a problem had to trace it in shaving cream, or write it big on the board, or dance to it?...  For these boys, this type of gross motor activity and jogging it out really made it stick.
Something I have always stressed to all of my students is that there is nothing wrong with making a mistake; that is how we all learn.  Sooo it should not be humiliating to miss a problem. But...
Many of the things  that  educators do when children make mistakes (be it poor grades on tests and report cards, or  spelling a word wrong in a spelling bee) are, however, to an extent, humiliating.    Sometimes just volunteering in class and giving a wrong answer can be devastating.
I guess I have tried to use a whole lot of praise, coupled with a lot of asking questions that I know the child can answer.   But when the wrong answers do come, they are still "not right."
Some of the consequences for wrong answers that people have used are just wrong in themselves (dunce caps). And those types of things ARE humiliating and wrong because they are not aimed at helping the child learn, they are aimed at punishing the child.  Other things  are not productive (writing lines) and are a waste of time.  But when we can find something that helps the child understand and correct his mistake, learn from it, and not make it again; then we are doing our job as teachers.
That being said, I'll stop rambling, take my lashes, jog around the field a
few times, and promise to be more careful in the future. :<>


SUBJECT:      Re:Alternative Education
Date:    95-10-12 08:17:13 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

That being said, I'll stop rambling, take my lashes, jog around the field a
few times, and promise to be more careful in the future.>>
Well, only if the lashes are with a very wet, over-cooked noodle. <grin>
I want to say that your point about how children are responded to when they get a "wrrong" answer is important.  Emotion plays a huge role in a child's ability to take in and respond to learning.  Humiliated children not only often don't participate, but sometimes they turn-off and shut-down completely.
And, yes, some children learn best when they use their bodies.  I have one that likes to walk while she reads, and another that does his best homework standing at the laundryroom counter while rocking from hip to hip!  We have made up poems, put them to music and then invented a dance number in order to memorize map facts.  Whatever it takes for that particular child for that particular task!
You sound terrific.  We need MORE of you!
:)

SUBJECT:      Re:Alternative Education
Date:    95-10-12 20:22:10 edt    FROM:      COOKIEM2U

Oynk Oynk,
Would you consider coming to Northern VA and be my son's teacher?  To find someone who is willing to LISTEN to the needs of the child is wonderful.  My son would have learned his multiplication tables a lot sooner had someone taken the time to make learning fun for him.  Sorry but he hates school.  I had had my feel of these so called "experts" who think that their way is the only way.  Each child is different and what works for one isn't right for the next one.  Anyway, from your posts you sound like a wonderful teacher and all of your "kids" are lucky to have you in their corner.
CookieM2U

SUBJECT:      Re:Alternative Education
Date:    95-10-12 22:10:06 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"I guess I am wondering if I would have gotten the same responses to saying that students who missed a problem had to trace it in shaving cream, or write it big on the board, or dance to it?..."
I have a problem with the "have to..." especially since *all* these things (like the laps or push-ups) draw attention to the student's error.
My daughter's violin teacher has a wonderful attitude. Of course she makes mistakes during her lesson, and he'll say ... No, that's wrong... OF COURSE it's wrong. How could it not be wrong? This is hard! But we'll work on it."
No pushups, no laps, no shaving cream.
I don't think it's wise to draw attention to a child's mistakes. My view. You
probably have some special ability to make your approach work, but I don't
think I have it.

SUBJECT:    Re:Alternative Education
Date:    95-10-13 12:16:10 edt    FROM:      Bre5

I can see where the pushups could be a problem, but I love the physical exercise combined with the rhyming chant to learn the multiplication tables!
If you have these written down, could you share them with us? I would like to
use this with my son when he begins learning multiplication in the near
future.

SUBJECT:      RE:alternitive education
Date:    95-10-13 20:56:51 edt    FROM:      Oynk oynk

We only marched out the"hard" ones that there was no other trick for.  (The 0s, 1s, 2s, 5s, and 10s, can easily be skip counted, the 3s are a 1 and a 2, the 4s are a double and double again, and the 9s have the weird finger thing) What we were left with (with advance apologies for the grammar and rhyming ) went to cadence.  It was:
6*6 aint got no tricks, 6*6 is 36
6*7 you can do 6*7 is 42
6*8 is really great...
7*7 is mighty fine...
8*8 you know for sure...

Then we counted out for 7*8  5678-56  (Its a visual thing - see 5 6 7 8
56=7*8)  (same thing for 1234-12=3*4)
Also we had these weird story sentences. Like for 8*8=64, it would be "I ate and ate until I got sick on the floor."  (I 8 and 8 until I got 6 on the 4).  (groan) :)
Well, I know its gross, but it stuck.




SUBJECT:      Re:Alternative Education
Date:    95-10-13 21:43:05 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

There's no doubt that physical movement increases learning for many kids. But
I would use the physical movement while learning... not after something has
gone wrong.

SUBJECT:      Re:RE:alternitive education
Date:    95-10-13 21:44:02 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Hey... whatever works (urp-grin).

SUBJECT:    ADD and Emotional Disorders
Date:    95-10-15 18:14:12 edt    FROM:      TRUFISH

I have a nephew with ADD who is very volitile emotionally, (on top of being an almost 15 year old teen.)  He has a short fuse, and has acted out in violent ways a number of times over the years. I live in another state, and am wondering if there are schools in the Michigan area that deal with both the emotional distubance as well as the ADD. His home life has been divided between two divorced parents  who are not able to control his mood swings. My concern is that he find a  place that can offer limits and boundaries, as well as loving support. Do any of you out ther know if such a place exists?  If not, what about school options. My fear is that it's too little too late.
Please respond, or e-mail me at [e-mail]


SUBJECT:      Re:help
Date:    95-10-16 11:06:35 edt    FROM:      DN92667

My daughter is in an inclusion class.  She has ADHD, her teacher work on an
awards system.  She puts the children in groups and when a child in the group
does something good (I.E.-Raise hand instead of calling out answer,
politeness, etc.) they get a ticket, when they reach 50 tickets, the group
gets a prize.  She says that it usually works and it is worth the money that
she spends each year to have a good class.

SUBJECT:    Re:Fairfax Co. VA school
system
Date:    95-10-16 11:09:51 edt    FROM:      DN92667

My daughter is in an inclusion class.  Her teachers motto is "If a child
can't learn the way we teach, we must teach the way the can learn".  Maybe
you should talk to the teacher and see if you can get a different approach
from her.

SUBJECT:      Re:waiting and waiting for spec
Date:    95-10-16 11:12:29 edt    FROM:      DN92667

I would go right to the superintendent of schools and demand that they do it
right away.

SUBJECT:      Success!
Date:    95-10-17 20:11:21 edt    FROM:      CATHGR8

Once more, I thank all of you who help with advice on these boards.  Had a 504 meeting Friday with the principal, Alison's teacher and the school psychologist (and brought a friend).  It was very rewarding.  The principal, though unwilling to transfer her, had called the former principal to ask why this teacher had been chosen, and had a good answer.  They were both sincerely concerned for Alison.  We went through all her accommodations, and if I wanted changes, they gave them.  I asked for some new ones, and they gave them, listening and discussing the reasons carefully.  The teacher made it clear that she would gladly put extra time and effort into helping Alison feel secure in her class, and appreciated all my suggestions.  Told me any time I thought of something else, just to let her know.  The new principal asked about our homelife, and her history, and my friend told her about her dad dying of cancer, our moving, her being adopted in a very sympathetic way (I probably would have been matter of fact), leaving the principal to say she was going to start making  a point of finding her and giving her hugs and attention!  She also told me she was thrilled to have the chance to meet me, since she hasn't been there long and wants to get to know the people.  So I have the greatest appreciation for all I've learned about ADD, 504's, accommodations,etc. through the AOL boards.  In a year, I've gone from being lost and intimidated to confident about knowing the issues and communicating them.  Love you all!  Cathy

SUBJECT:    Re:Success!
Date:    95-10-18 00:47:53 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Oh, Cathy I'm so glad! Wonderful when people listen to each other, eh?

SUBJECT:
Re:    ADD and Emotional Disorders
Date:    95-10-18 06:40:46 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

Trufish,
I don't know where in Mich you are (it is a big state), but in Birmingham
(near Detroit) is a school for children with ADD and LDs.  It is a private
school that specializes and has a good track record.  You might check into
it.  It is called the Eton Academy.  Sorry, I don't have the phone
number.

SUBJECT:      Re:Reading
Date:    95-10-18 12:30:54 edt    FROM:      HD Ride994

I have a 13 year old son with some behavioral issues and using Special Education.  First lets clarify that special education is not a place but a service or group of service provided to your child by his school system based on his individual needs.  Second if he has no behavioral issues but is placed in a classroom with children with these issues soon you will find him modeling after those kids.  So what I am saying is that you may not see any problems now but you might because who else is he going to learn to act from.
Get him out of that classroom and integrated into the regular education
classroom WITH APPROPRIATE SUPPORTS!  To address specific reading problems
sometimes grade level appropriate low vocabulary high interest books can
help, we have adapted our kid sometimes records himself reading, sometimes he
reads and then the teacher reads the same thing then an activity is done
based on what is read.  This activity is to help with comprehension.  Hope
this helps...hang in there.

SUBJECT:    Re:Fairfax Co. VA school system
Date:    95-10-18 15:11:21 edt    FROM:      RH22182

Cookie, I have a child in the Fairfax County system.  She is in kindergarten now, and is beginning an observation process to determine what, if any, recommendations are to be made.  (Her teacher feels there may be an attention problem).  Anyway, I am obviously not as involved at this point in the system as you are, but I have been very fortunate.  So far, the teacher, counselor, and psychologist at the school have been really helpful, and have kept me well informed.  (Though I must admit that much of my information has come from SusanS29, and others on AOL).  It has been my experience having grown up in Fairfax County school system and now having two kids in it that so much of the decisions are arbitrary based on the powers that be at the particular school.  Maybe you should research some of the other schools in your immediate area.  A friend of mine was granted a waiver on her boundary because she proved her daughter's needs would be better met at a different school.  Good luck!


SUBJECT:      Re:waiting and waiting for spec
Date:    95-10-19 22:07:17 edt    FROM:      RAlva10173

I might be able to help as I am very active with the CH.A.D.D. chapter here in my location. I have literature that I would be more then willing to sent.  I am new to the Line but would be willing to help. I have  a child that is ADHD and know what you are going through.
RAlv.


SUBJECT:      Re:Reading
Date:    95-10-19 22:10:49 edt    FROM:      RAlva10173

My child was to be put into a Special Ed class and I would not allow it. At
present she is Main Streamed and doing well. I have a tutor twicw a week and
have purchased all her textbooks at home so we can get a head start on
assignments. I receive a weeks' worth of assignments every Monday from her
teachers, this helps with tests, hand in projects, etc.

SUBJECT:    What should I
expect from an IEP
Date:    95-10-19 22:31:06 edt    FROM:      MoElStack

My family is stationed in Korea.  My son is attending a DOD (Department of Defense) school.   Before we moved to Korea, my son was tested and found to have learning disabilities in addition to the AD/HD previously diagnosed.
Since the results of the testing came so close to the end of the year, the
school refused to act upon the information until this year.  It is now
October and they requested a 45 day extension, which my husband granted,
since I am currently in the United States attending to family business.  When
I return to Korea, I want to be an advocate for my son, but I do not have any
experience with IEP.  I would appreciate any specific information that anyone
could offer.  I will be leaving the United States on October 27 (hopefully)
and would appreciate whatever help you can give me.  Please e-mail at
moelstack.aol.com  Thank you.

SUBJECT:    Re:Reading
Date:    95-10-21 14:27:50 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

I have only one comment for your outstanding accomplishements:
"I have a tutor twicw a week and have purchased all her textbooks at home so we can get a head start on assignments."
YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM.

SUBJECT:    TS with ADD
Date:    95-10-24 19:20:58 edt    FROM:      A1Richter5

My son was diagnosed with a possible latent tourette's syndrome with ADHD
when he was 6.  Definitely ADHD, but possible TS, so the nuerologist put him
on an antidepressant (imipramine), instead of Ritalin, which we were told
would exacerbate the tourette's to the point where even if we stopped the
ritalin,the worsened tourette's would remain.   I feel the need to share this
info, as some teachers have mentioned other TS,ADD  children that they know
of taking Ritalin.  Apparently this is not a widely known fact.  After 2
years of my son taking this med., I noticed he seemed "dull", personality,
and slow-working on his homework, very slow-hours.  I took him off of it 1
and a half years ago.  he picked up the pace on his homework time, but now we
have problems again.  Apathy, no doubt from frustration, no intrest in trying
harder to learn new, difficult  algebra.  No desire to improve in spelling,
reading, taking time to practice skills. The Committee on Special Ed. claims
that he doesn't need help because his grades are not bad enough.  .  For some
reason, they claim ADD is not on the list of learning disabilities!Does
anyone know anything about this?   A1RICHTER5.

SUBJECT:    Re:TS with ADD
Date:    95-10-24 22:42:45 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

You need to get a copy of CHADD's "EDUCATOR'S MANUAL" quite badly! Your child is eligible for support and help through section 504 of the Civil Rights Act, and this book will explain it all for you.
BTW it turns out that Ritalin does *not* always make TS worse, and in some cases improves it some. It's still a very "touchy" area, and I can understand why your doctor is a little gun-shy.
I also recommend you use keyword IMH to get to a really great area on-line
about ADD. You'll find other people there dealing with the TS/ADD
combination.

SUBJECT:      Re:TS with ADD
Date:    95-10-24 23:30:01 edt    FROM:      COOKIEM2U

Sounds like your Child is in the Fairfax County School System in Virginia.
Only school system I have ever heard of that thinks that if they don't
mention ADD then it will go away.

SUBJECT:    Re:TS with ADD
Date:    95-10-25 00:14:45 edt    FROM:      A1Richter5

A1Richter5--No, this is the Port Jervis, NY school system. I hope no one here
is watching, Well, heck the committee all knows me anyway.I've been fighting
with them for years. Not NY itself, we've lived in other areas, where Brian
was considered LD, moved to PJ,got declassified, moved to Monticello, got
re-classified, moved back to PJ, got declassified again!  Believe that?  Port
Jervis thinks learning disabilities come n' go , I guess!  I'm new here, by
the way, and just figured out how to use this computer. I'm so glad to have
found this subject.  I copied the document Teaching Strategies.. haven't read
it yet.Any more information, or input is appreciated.  Thanks.

SUBJECT:    Re:TS
with ADD
Date:    95-10-25 06:54:14 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<< For some reason, they claim ADD is not on the list of learning
disabilities!Does anyone know anything about this?>>
Susan is right - get a copy of the CHADD educator's manual.  You can call 1-800-545-5583 to get a copy.  It is cheap - about $12 plus shipping.  You might think about getting two.  Read one and know it by heart, then give the other to the school.
In 1991 the Department of Education made it very clear the children with ADD are included under the Section 504 law.  This is a civil rights law.  The schools are obligated to meet your child's needs and provide him with appropriate accommodations so he can access the education at their school.  Not to do so is to violate his civil rights.  Also Title II of the American's with Disabilities Act is enforcable.
You might also want to contact NICHCY for more information.  This is a national clearinghouse of information on children with disabilities.  They have tons of great stuff - free.  Their number is 1-800-695-0285.
Good luck, and keep us posted.

SUBJECT:    Re:TS with ADD
Date:    95-10-25 10:40:32 edt    FROM:      A1Richter5
Ratatat:    Thanks so much!  I will get this info fight away.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Alternative Education
Date:    95-10-26 14:13:57 edt    FROM:      Socadream

Don't be so hard on "OYNK,OYNK"!!  My daughter would have loved what he thought of .  When my son was beginning to learn spanish and she knew she would have mucho difficulties (she is severley ld) we tried marching and waving our arms while counting to ten in spanish.  Guess what? she learned it in ten minutes and now, a year later she still knows it! (she wasn't even taking spanish!)  I use this for her all the time now (to study for tests etc..) and it helps every time.
Good thinking OYNK... maybe the push-ups is what got others so upset,  we
need more of YOU in our schools, want to come to So. Calf?  I'll put you in
my daughter's IEP!!!:    )    -----socadream

SUBJECT:    Re:Alternative Education
Date:    95-10-26 20:15:46 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"...  maybe the push-ups is what got others so upset..."
BINGO. Physical movement does enhance learning but the military uses pushups as a public intimidation technique with the rookies.
I use lots of physical movement, but not pushups.

SUBJECT:    Myth or Reality
Date:    95-10-27 19:36:33 edt    FROM:      David 516

ADD and Ritalin have been the topic of hot debate in recent news reports on 20/20, PBS, USAToday and other media.
Our guest in The Shade Tree conference room on Tuesday, November 7th at
10pm ET will be Dr. Thomas Armstrong, author of the new book The Myth of the
ADD Child:    50 Ways to Improve Your Child's Behavior and Attention Span
without Drugs, Labels, or Coercion.
   Join us as he discusses his belief that ADD does not actually exist but represents rather a mixed bag of kids whose problems may actually be those of society and the broader culture.
   This is sure to be an exciting and volatile hour so be sure you are there
on time.

SUBJECT:      Re:Myth or Reality
Date:    95-10-27 20:51:40 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Yes, please-EVERYONE come-especially those parents reading this who know *very well* that ADD is no myth and that people who take that attitude toward their child with ADD or ADHD hold the potential to do the child tremendous harm.
Get a gander at the author who says ADD doesn't exist but then writes a whole
book about how to deal with it!!!

SUBJECT:    Re:Myth or Reality
Date:    95-10-27 20:52:30 edt    FROM:      SusanS29
PS:    the reports from 20/20 and PBS contained misinformation, exaggerations
and ... sometimes ... things that can only be described as deliberate
attempts to mislead the viewers.

SUBJECT:    Re:Myth or Reality
Date:    95-10-27 22:59:06 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<< Join us as he discusses his belief that ADD does not actually exist>>
Oh, puleeze!
Discussions like these the hand out so much bogus information cause untold
amounts of time to be spent by training psychologists talking to parents to
dispell these myths, thus delaying the benefits that good be had from having
accurate information sooner.  How tiring!

SUBJECT:    Re:Myth or Reality
Date:    95-10-27 23:14:52 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

My guess is that there will be some lawsuits forthcoming over the PBS "show."
I have already heard some indications that at least one "Merrow Report"
corporate sponsor is upset about the show and intends to ask some questions
about why it was done the way it was done.

SUBJECT:    Re:Myth or Reality
Date:    95-10-28 17:17:27 edt    FROM:      JOdonn4461

I did not get to see the 20/20 or PBS shows.  Heard they were on after but
nothing as to what they told, doesn't sound very good.  Any one know how I
can get a copy of the show(s) or did any one tape it?  Would love to view
them or just have some one e-mail me with what went on in a summary.  Thanks
Jane in Northern NH

SUBJECT:      Compensatory Education
Date:    95-11-02 22:42:24 edt    FROM:      JTRANDALL

I believe compensatory education to be additional education beyond the legal age and could be awarded if the school has done something wrong.
Has anyone every heard of credits being awarded.  For example, if a ADHD high schooler with and IEP is exspelled over the legal limit, and the school is found to be in error, and he does not want to continue high school when he is 19 or 20 can one or two credits be awarded or the required credits lowered for graduation from, lets say, 22 to 20.
I'm not sure what good compensatory education would be for most high
schoolers as I cannot image very many would want to continue high school
after 18.

SUBJECT:      Re:Moving to a new state
Date:    95-11-05 19:38:49 edt    FROM:      Cdl2241
Dear Cookie:    I am a Special Education teacher in Florida, and the three year
reevaluation is normal and necessary to continue to provide services.  As for the medication, any changes should be done by your doctor. However, your child should continue to take the medication even during this reevaluation.  Every state has it own rules and regulations concerning Public education services, and they are also required to follow mandates by PL 94-142(gov't sponsored)
funding.  I hope I have been of some help, good luck in your
undertakings.

SUBJECT:      Help/Information on CHADD
Date:    95-11-09 10:15:27 edt    FROM:      ATTONEY B

What is CHADD all about, and where can i get information. Please Please help,
I have a son that is ADDH and I can't get anywhere with the school system
here in Michigan. My son is 13 years old and is in the 8th grade. Please
E-mail or send a respones here.

SUBJECT:    SPECIAL SCHOOL
Date:    95-11-11 19:14:09 edt    FROM:      ATTONEY B

Can anyone help me find out about special school for ADD children, I have a
son that is ADDH, he is 13 year old and he in the 8th card, also can anyone
give me information about home schooling.

SUBJECT:    Re:Help/Information on CHADD
Date:    95-11-11 23:02:19 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

I'm at the National CHADD Conference right now, and can tell you they have a wealth of information.
call them at [phone].

SUBJECT:    Re:help
Date:    95-11-12 00:59:24 edt    FROM:      SSmith8242

Like some of the messages have said each state is different, we're in Ark.  and in a small school dist. but we have some very good resource teachers. Our problem is my child is not turning in his work or when he does turn it in its only half finished.
We have our usual
afternoon program of when we get home he takes his medicine, he relaxes for
15 min.
then its homework time at the dining room table and no distractions. One
other problem
is he piddles then I have to stay on him. Because theres no T.V. time until
the homework
is done.

SUBJECT:      Re:Moving to a new state
Date:    95-11-14 03:56:08 edt    FROM:      User1922

It is your right to have proper schooling provided or find an appropraite
private school.

SUBJECT:      Re:Moving to a new state
Date:    95-11-16 02:11:18 edt    FROM:      Emu95

It  becomes your new school district's legal responsibility to implement an appropriate program for your child.  The district of residence MUST ensure that ALL disabled students are provided with  an appropriate program.  As a parent it is your obligation to be an equal participant in the decission making process,  and determine what services are necessary, based upon your child's unique needs.  Parents should not sign an IEP that failes to provide an appropriate program and/or any related services that are necessary for the student to make academic progress comenserate with intelectual ability.  Make sure you have all school records and try and locate a good advocate.
Good Luck.

SUBJECT:      Re:Help with ADD
Date:    95-11-19 14:28:29 edt    FROM:      TKHIGG

All ADD children are different; however, many mod's work.

SUBJECT:    Re:CHADD and
IDEA
Date:    95-11-19 14:29:36 edt    FROM:      TKHIGG

LDA is aware of what is going on in Washington

SUBJECT:    Accommodations for SAT?
Date:    95-11-19 21:47:34 edt    FROM:      Maryrenard

My 16 year old was diagnosed ADD last year....  it sure explained years of frustration and heartache!  Now a junior, he's doing much, much better in school.  If only we could get through the hurdles of all the standardized testing for college.  It was a *royal struggle* to get extended time for the PSAT and I see more struggles ahead.  My question:  there are two "levels" of accommodations for the SAT, one allows 90 extra minutes allocated by section (that is, 15 extra minutes for each of 6 sections on the test), the other allows virtually unlimited and unstructured time (up to twelve hours).  From the SAT booklet it seems that the unlimited-time option is only available for a "physical disability" such as the need for Braille or large type.  One can argue that ADD can be a physical disability in my opinion...  but I know I won't get anywhere with his counselor;  I can't get a straight answer out of anyone.  (a well-known school system mentioned frequently on this board!!!!) Anyone with experience - please help!  Thanks-Mary R

SUBJECT:    Re:Accommodations for SAT?
Date:    95-11-20 22:46:32 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<< the other allows virtually unlimited and unstructured time (up to twelve
hours).  From the SAT booklet it seems that the unlimited-time option is only
available for a "physical disability" such as the need for Braille or large
type.  One can argue that ADD can be a physical disability in my opinion...
but I know I won't get anywhere with his counselor;  I can't get a straight
answer out of anyone.  (a well-known school system mentioned frequently on
this board!!!>>
Mary,
At our public high schools the schools have worked hard to lobby for children with ADD to have the extended or unlimited time for SATs.  The SAT company used to demand an HUGE amount of documenting paperwork for each student to be allowed the extra time accommodation.  Now, even the SAT people are being better educated about what ADD is, and have an easier mechanism in place for students to qualify.  The students are our school can choose either option.  As I understand it, most chose the unlimited option.  However, they didn't use more than about 15 to 30 minutes more for each section.  I think that just knowing they "had all the time in the world" relieved their test anxiety.  AND....on average their test scores improved dramatically. You might consider too, that the ACT could be a better test for a child with ADD.  Similar results were seen when the ACT was given with time accommodations.  I believe the average increase in test scores was something like 6 points.  If you e-mail me, I can give you the name of our school so your counselor can talk to our school's counseling office.

SUBJECT:    Re:Accommodations for SAT?
Date:    95-11-21 19:36:50 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

6 points is a huge improvement on the ACT.
Did you mean the SAT?
Our school recommends the kids take the PSAT in their junior year. Then if they think they'll need extra time, they can take the SAT twice-first timed, and then if they think it will make a difference, untimed.
Colleges are allowed to take into consideration the fact that the SAT was
taken under special circumstances, so unless the untimed approach makes a
significant difference, the student should use the timed scores.

SUBJECT:    Moving
to Georgia
Date:    95-11-23 12:38:44 edt    FROM:      PBSachs

I plan to move to the Atlanta area before the beginning of the next school year.  My 11 year old son is  ADD and LD....and we have literally been through it all with our present school system in Missouri.  I want to avoid all the problems we've already been through too many times in getting the educational services my son needs and is legally entitled to.   I will be going to Atlanta on business in early December,  and would like to investigate the educational options while I'm there.
Can anyone tell me anything about the Atlanta Public School System?  Are they responsive to the needs of children like my son?  Is there a strong ChAdd chapter there?   What about private schools?  I don't have a lot of money, but I would do  anything possible to avoid additional difficulties for him.
Any information or insight would be welcome and appreciated.   Thanks.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Accommodations for SAT?
Date:    95-11-25 10:16:53 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<6 points is a huge improvement on the ACT.
Did you mean the SAT?>>
Nope, I mean the ACT!!!
I'll dig out the numbers for you and post them here.
Our school system was one of the pioneers in convincing the testing establishment that untimed testing is a real accommodation.  It just proves that "faster is not smarter."
<<Colleges are allowed to take into consideration the fact that the SAT was
taken under special circumstances, so unless the untimed approach makes a
significant difference, the student should use the timed scores.>>
Er, isn't that discrimination?  They really shouldn't do that as a part of
the admissions decision!

SUBJECT:      Re:Accommodations for SAT?
Date:    95-11-25 10:41:58 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"Did you mean the SAT?>>
Nope, I mean the ACT!!!"
WOW.

SUBJECT:      Re:Accommodations for SAT?
Date:    95-11-25 10:42:37 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"<<Colleges are allowed to take into consideration the fact that the SAT was
taken under special circumstances, so unless the untimed approach makes a
significant difference, the student should use the timed scores.>>
Er, isn't that discrimination?  They really shouldn't do that as a part of the admissions decision!"
Apparently not...

SUBJECT:      Child with ADD and LD
Date:    95-11-28 22:46:24 edt    FROM:      MSterg8366

I live in Cleveland and would like some information on this.  How do I get more information, i would like to someone who's child has the same.
Ginger or Mike

SUBJECT:      Re:Concerned parent
Date:    95-11-28 23:20:29 edt    FROM:      JFinochio

My son is ADHD.  I knew that in kindergarten there was something.  I depended on the school system to help me.  All I got was that he did not want to sit still he was disruptive and lazy.  It wasn't until he was in 2nd grade that I had him tested myself.  I was told he had a learning disability.  I felt that was the end.  To my surprise he continued to have problems in school.  By now he had no self esteem.  In 4th grade I took him to a neurologist and was told he had ADHD. It was a rocky road, but my son is now 16 and in his junior year.  He is in all mainstream classes and has a 3.0 GPA.  He is a boy that people admire and have no idea that he has a learning disability and is also ADHD.  He is active in sports and is getting ready to look into colleges.  I was told when he was in 2nd grade not to let my child be classified as special ed.  That was the best thing I every did for my son.  He understands his disability and has been able to grow.  There will always be people, friends, family that don't understand.  It is not a label it is a understanding for intelligent people to recognize and work with this child.  Do what you feel is best for your child.  What will make him feel good about himself.  Remember nobody knows your child like yourself.  Just be open minded.  Good luck!!


SUBJECT:      Classroom Aide for 5yr old
Date:    95-11-30 03:18:25 edt    FROM:      MORAHNANCY

I am in Walnut Creek, Ca  I am trying to hire someone as an instructional aide for my son 6-15 hours a week in a private Kdg.  He requires an individual who will help facilitate transitions, manage oppositional behavior and generally do what the classroom teacher and aide should be doing in a class that has only 18 children.  Inappropriate behavior is escalating as there is no interest in the environment to accomodate.  We are in the process of having him evaluated, as a Resource Specialist I am fairly certain the diagnosis will be ADD. I currently go to school with  my son 3 days per week.  The other two I work.  When he is supervised he does okay If you know anyone who can help or wants this position contact me directly.
Morah Nancy @ aol.com.

SUBJECT:    Help Dealing w/Private School
Date:    95-11-30 03:28:25 edt    FROM:      MORAHNANCY

Are any laws enforcable in private kindergarten ?  DO they have to accomodate
ADD child?

SUBJECT:      Re:Help Dealing w/Private Sc
Date:    95-11-30 08:23:48 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<Are any laws enforcable in private kindergarten ?  DO they have to
accomodate ADD child?>>
Check out Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act.  It covers private non-religious schools, bascially under the same rules as 504 for children in public school.
But, first you must have a diagnosis and show that your child has a pattern/history of failure to succeed.  That part might be a little harder when I child is in Kindergarten....doesn't have much history yet.

SUBJECT:
Re:    ADD and Down's syndrome
Date:    95-11-30 19:48:55 edt    FROM:      DLH1960

I have a few students in inclusive environments.  Ge. Ed. Teachers are very concerned with the spec. needs child's inability to attend to a small or a whole group activity.  Any advice out there??? And do doctors put down's kiddos on ritalin with their history of heart conditions?




SUBJECT:      Re:ADD and Down's syndrome
Date:    95-12-02 17:52:34 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

The ability to attend has to be compared to the child's developmental, not chronological age. So before doing anything make sure the expectations are realistic.
The doctor should ansewr the question about Ritalin.

SUBJECT:    Good News
Date:    95-12-05 20:34:55 edt    FROM:      COOKIEM2U

Well, I'm back from Korea and just wanted to share something with you.  Today I went to the school to meet with the Special ED. teacher to start working on Jared's new IEP, after triannual testing.  The end of Oct I had him changed to another teacher....he is now passing his classes....in math he has a B compared to an F at this time last quarter.  And even English has improved.  But the "suprising" thing was that his behavior has made a 360 degree turn around.  I find that amazing......but then something tells me it was the old Sp. Ed. teacher.....old Mr. My way or no way.  Am very happy that things are going well.  Now if I can only get a copy of the test results........
Cookie
PS.  Mail got deleted.....would the person from Fairfax that emailed me please email me again.  I didn't get your number before the mail was deleted.
Sorry.

SUBJECT:    Re:Myth or Reality
Date:    95-12-05 23:05:49 edt    FROM:      LHart12745
RE:    David 516
Who's to say ADD/ADHD doesn't exist?  Perhaps the whole concept of ADD/ADHD
is a comorbid association of neurological predisposition, societal
influences, poor parenting, poor schooling,  inadequate nutrition, and
inappropriate opportunities of expression.  These are all contributing
variables that make this problem something that affects many individuals.  It
is the degree and number of variables that contribute to the inability to
perform adequately in society that make it a problem.  Probably 50% of the
population would meet most of the criteria.  But if they are functioning as a
contributing member of society, they are alright.  It's those who can't
function adequately in society that we are dealing with.  It is real, and it
won't go away just because a few people don't want to deal with all the
aspects of the problem.

SUBJECT:    ADHD HOME SCHOOLING
Date:    95-12-05 23:20:12 edt    FROM:      ChuckWagnr

RESOURCES NEEDED:  Curriculum and teaching strategies for students diagnosed
with ADHD, and successful home schooling strategies.  Requested by Master's
level teacher and psychologist who specializes in custom education for
exceptional students

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD HOME SCHOOLING
Date:    95-12-08 10:08:47 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<RESOURCES NEEDED:  Curriculum and teaching strategies for students
diagnosed with ADHD, and successful home schooling strategies.  Requested by
Master's level teacher and psychologist who specializes in custom education
for exceptional students>>
Have you checked out the Special Education Library?  I think you will find some valuable resources along the ling of what you are looking for.

SUBJECT:
Re:    ADHD HOME SCHOOLING
Date:    95-12-09 20:43:05 edt    FROM:      Valsudur

There are numerous files on ADD and the classroom in the files section of the Special Education Library here.


SUBJECT:      ADD
Date:    95-12-18 00:13:06 edt    FROM:      KMSIII

95-17-12
KMS
I have a ten year old son with ADD.  I am also writing a thesis for my
bachelors degree and need to find people willing to be interviewed that have
a male child between 8 and 12 years old.  I am interested in what has
happened in your son' s and your life since the diagnosis.  What decisions
you've made and how effective those decisions have been.

SUBJECT:    Identifying
ADD/ADHD
Date:    95-12-18 23:21:04 edt    FROM:      Maemi

I am a preschool teacher with a four year-old student (male) who is becomming
increasingly difficult to deal with.  He has great difficulty staying on task
- keep in mind that our philosophy is open ended and developmental and this child chooses his own tasks!  He is constantly being reminded to settle down
- keep his hands to himself, avoid throwing toys, walk inside, etc.

The only activities he can focus on for any length of time are construction activities such as blocks, building type manipulatives etc.  For these he may concentrate for five or ten minutes.
When asked what rule he broke when disciplining him, the child can usually tell us - usually hitting.
Any suggestions on diagnosing ADD or ADHD without alarming his parents needlessly?
Any help would be welcome!

SUBJECT:    Re:Identifying ADD/ADHD
Date:    95-12-19 09:05:49 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<Any suggestions on diagnosing ADD or ADHD without alarming his parents needlessly?
Any help would be welcome!>>
The ONLY people who can DIAGNOSE Attention Deficit Disorder are medical and mental health professionals who are trained to do so.  A comprehensive evaluation is very important, and done properly should include people from a variety of disciplines.  The quarter back for an evaluation should always be the practitioner (in conjunction with the parents).  A full evaluation can take a lot of time and includes many components:  a complete health and family history, checklists completed by the teacher, parents and other caregivers....to name just a few.  There are other disorders that can "look" like ADD to an untrained observer.  Though teachers are one of the single more important observers of behaviors - they are not sufficiently trained to diagnose ADD and/or other problems that can look like ADD or go with ADD.  It is just as important to know what ADD is and it is to know what ADD is not.
If you want to *hint* to the parents that there is a concern, you can state that you are seeing some behaviors that are extreme for his peer group.  Then list the behaviors you are seeing that are extraordinary for children his age.  Suggest that it might be a good idea to pursue an evaluation to eliminate (or include) the possibility of something like ADD.  Maybe this child has something else going on.  Only one way to find out.  And remember - ADD, if it is ADD, runs in families, which means that one or both parents you will be dealing with probably have ADD too!
Is there a school psychologist or special ed teacher who can come into your room and objectively observe the classroom for you?  It might be helpful to have some supporting opinions from an outside person if you anticipate the parents *might* be difficult.
Good luck.

SUBJECT:    Re: Identifying ADD/ADHD
Date:    95-12-19 12:53:20 edt    FROM:      ADHD4U

One method that is often quite helpful in helping parents to identify the need for ADHD assessment is to send an information sheet of brochure about the disorder home with all of the children.  This does not single out one particular child, and chances are you have other parents in the class that could also benefit from this information.
Another method is to invite the parent to come and observe their child interacting with other children.  This method works best if you have an observation room where the parent can watch without being seen by the child.
A final method that can be very effective is to video tape the class participating in a class activity.  Sometime this must be done several times to help the children relax and not 'act' for the camera. After taping the class, you could call the parents of the difficult child in and ask them to view the video.  Most often they will notice if their child is behaving differently than his peers.  This could open the door to a discussion about assessment.  Please, always handle these matters carefully.  If the parent feels that they are being forced to give their child a label, they will fight it for years and the child will never benefit from the much needed help.


SUBJECT:      Re: Homeschooling
Date:    95-12-19 13:02:19 edt    FROM:      ADHD4U

The materials by Sandra Reif are excellent for all children with ADHD.  Her book, How To Reach and Teach ADD/ADHD Children would be an excellent source of information for homeschoolers as well as regular classroom teachers.
Also since children with ADHD learn best when they are taught one on one and
when they receive immediate feed-back, educational computer programs would
work great for a homeschooling program.  There are a lot of good educational
software on the market right now.  One that comes to mind is GeoSafari.  They
have just come out with software for windows and CD rom.

SUBJECT:    Re:Moving to
Georgia
Date:    95-12-19 13:10:27 edt    FROM:      ADHD4U

There are several support groups in the Atlanta area.  Contact some of them and ask the parents who have children in that area, what they recommend they will be in the best possition to help you with this difficult question.  Here is a list of some of the support groups in that area.
Larry Mclear [phone],  Joan Teach, Ph.D. [phone],  DeCalb
County CHADD [phone],  Cobb County CHADD [phone].  Give them a
try!  Good Luck!

SUBJECT:    Re:Identifying ADD/ADHD
Date:    95-12-19 18:23:21 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

" He has great difficulty staying on task - keep in mind that our philosophy is open ended and developmental and this child chooses his own tasks!"
He may need a little more direction than some children in your program. Some children with ADD do well in such a program and some do not. I have two children with ADD, who both went to a Montessori school. One did better with it than the other.
As for what he's choosing, it either taps into something he senses he needs
to learn, or-more likely-taps into a strength of his. Most children who
have ADD are even more concrete than the average four-year old, and he may
respond to hands-on activities
As for the parents, I would ease into it by saying "Here's what we observe at school-do you see this at home?" If it happens only at school it isn't ADD.
If they do see it, then they probably have some concerns, and you can talk about those. I would not state "I think he has ADD." I would say "ADD is one possibility" or something like that-if they ask.
If they don't ask, talk to them again in another couple of months after they've had a chance to absorb the first information. If you lead them well and they're reasonable people, eventually they'll say "What do *you* think is going on?" I'd have introductory literature on ADD available at that point, but don't diagnose-other problems can also cause these symptoms.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Testing-will school pay?
Date:    95-12-21 15:24:45 edt    FROM:      Amos McD

My almost 8 year old son has been in special ed. since age 4-1/2yrs due to gross and fine motor delay, as well as concerns about impulsiveness/attention. He was born prematurely.  He's in a regular 1st grade class this year, and gets pulled out for OT.  He is considered a resource student. In Kindergarten last year he had an EA in class to help him with fine motor tasks and attention but he did so well, the school didn't think he needed it.  His fine motor skills are much better and qualifies now for special ed. under health, rather than fine motor delay.  The school wants to keep him in special ed. because they aren't sure how the prematurity will affect him in the long run, which I think is quite decent of them.  Now on to my question!! :)
Chris is not doing well in school due to distractibiliy/attention problems, and is not making friends at all.  He is now being seen by a child psychologist to test for possible ADD (not hyperactive), as well as a global assessment of his strengths and weaknesses.  The psychologist would like the school to do a Weschler(sp?) IQ test as well as a general achievement test.  She thinks the school will do it for free.  She will do additional testing herself.  My question (finally!!) is-Is Chris entitled to this school testing under his current special ed. qualification or do I have to do a new Focus of Concern?  Also, if the school has to do it, how soon must they do it?  Half the school year has gone by and I don't want to waste much more time.  He's on Christmas break now, so I will have to wait until January to approach the school.  Any info would be very helpful.  Leave a message here, or email me AMOS [e-mail].  Thanks!

SUBJECT:    Re:Testing-will school pay?
Date:    95-12-22 08:08:04 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<Any info would be very helpful.  Leave a message here, or email me AMOS
[e-mail].  Thanks!<<
Has the school noted concern regarding your child's ADD-like symptoms?  Has he had a thorough evaluation by the school, including the WISC-III?  Have they asked that he be evaluated?  Have you asked them to have him evaluated?
There is every reason for you to request the school to do the testing.  There is more than a demonstrated need for the testing, and the school must meet his needs - free of charge.
Regarding your specific questions about a reassessment with the school's paperwork - I have no idea.  Each State has different rules about how they classify special education - but, remember, it must - minimally - meet the federal criteria.
You raise the essential point, however.  Time.  To go through the school could take some time.  Depending on the rules of your state.  Federal rules simply say things must be done in a reasonable time.  So, maybe - instead of being concerned with the would, should part of the school doing the testing your son would be better off having you arrange for it privately in a timely way.  The psychologist should be able to do this testing, though, because of the hours it takes, can be a bit expensive sometimes.  Meanwhile, after break, you can request that the school do the testing - suggest that you can make arrangements to have it done privately - quickly - if that is okay with them.  (Many schools do not have psychologists on staff, and refer testing of this kind out to psychologists in the community anyway).  In this way, if the school can do the testiing "in-house" in a timely way, you win - and if they can't, you already have an appointment.
Also, you should check with your State's Protection and Advocacy Office (usually located in the state's capitol) and request information from them on the rules and procedures in your state regarding special education, the IDEA law, the Section 504 law, and the ADA law.  And, ask specifically about the rules in your state regarding your specific situation.  Also, ask them if you have a C.A.U.S.E. office in your state.  This is a private advocacy group that is dedicated to informing and helping parents, and to uphold special education.
Good luck.

SUBJECT:    Re:Testing-will school pay?
Date:    95-12-26 01:14:43 edt    FROM:      PeterCB55

Usually testing is done in response to a specific question and the belief that a particular test will provide usefull information regarding a given body of skills related the presence/absence of a particular disorder. In this situation, you can always ask (in writing is usually best) and await the reply of the special education team. While schools are required under federal law to provide assessment services, the particulars of the assessment vary widely from school district to school district. I recall that Russell Barkley, Ph.D.  made a similar comment several years ago concerning the costs of testing, suggesting  that school can and should (under law) provide such testing (e.g., WISC-III). Yet, it remains the perrogative of the school special education team to decide how best to assess a given area of concern.  Thus, you may be able to shape the question, but not the way in which it is answered. For example, some districts simply do not take on the job of assessing attention problems with more than a "screening" approach (e.g,.  using paper and pencil measures only), feeling that it is best left to others to cope with the differential diagnostic aspects of this area. On the other hand, some districts have well trained staff who are proficient in assessment of these types of problems. First ask, then with the schools response in hand, and with your other concern in mind, (e.g., time)  talk it over with the professional who is working with you about the best way to proceed. In addition, you might want to ask them to explain to you the relative importance of using a measure of cognitive ability as part of their assessment in this specific case. Is it essential or just "helpful" in a more general sense? This may help you better understand why the suggestion of this test in this specific instance.
Good luck
PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    ADHD Teen
Date:    95-12-27 22:27:10 edt    FROM:      HERMIT8185

HI, I'm teaching a fourteen year old youth who has been diagnosed with ADHD
with a anxiety disorder.  He comes from a troubled home and is not medicated
in any way. I see oynk oynk had some suggestions about taping an area out for
students to move around in.  Sounds good I need some more suggestions.  He is
having a difficult time and I teach him in the afternoon when I think he has
more difficulty.  We tried basket weaving when doing lessons or other art
related activities sometimes this works sometimes it does not. This seems to
depend on not anly the ADHD but how anxious he is about who knows what. It's
a challange. Any suggestions are more than welcome.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD Teen
Date:    95-12-28 12:42:42 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<HI, I'm teaching a fourteen year old youth who has been diagnosed with ADHD
with a anxiety disorder.  He comes from a troubled home and is not medicated
in any way. I see oynk oynk had some suggestions about taping an area out for
students to move around in.  Sounds good I need some more suggestions.  He is
having a difficult time and I teach him in the afternoon when I think he has
more difficulty.  We tried basket weaving when doing lessons or other art
related activities sometimes this works sometimes it does not. This seems to
depend on not anly the ADHD but how anxious he is about who knows what. It's
a challange. Any suggestions are more than welcome. >>
There are a few things that people with ADD absolutely need to have, and I would think that ADD with an anxiety disorder would compound their need to have these things.  They are:
Structured Environment:  Classroom management must be ADD friendly, all students will benefit from this.  The teacher must establish authority by letting the children know VERY CLEARLY what the limits will be.  A few very simple rules, clearly stated, even posted are best.  Show respect to the individual person, role model respectful behavior, solid values and be clear about your expectations.
Time:  People with ADD have a horrible "inner-clock"  and cannot sense or judge how long things take to do.  So a job that is really very short can seem to them that it might take a life time, especially if it is something they do not want to do, or that makes them anxious.  Make sure that first, they are given the gift of knowing they will have enough time to do things.  Second, help them break down each task into small, accomplishable, easily executive pieces, or "chucks".  Praise after each piece is started and finished, a rest, then onto the next small piece is important.
Anti-anxiety "agents"  are things like overlearning something so that it becomes habitual to the point it can be done without concern or thought.  Mostly, a system of routine of how a task will be started is important.  Teach them to start with "chunking" everything, so they can see the managable pieces, with breaks inbetween.  Help them to develop a backup system for things they must do that make them anxious, like stopping, taking a walk, things to say to themselves to talk themselves through things, someone to turn to when then have need.  Also, exercise is very, very important.  Exercise is a great anxiety reliever and really helps people with ADD focus.
Also, can I ask a question?  Is there a reason why this child is not on medications for ADD or anxiety?  There are some marvelous medications around now that really help to correct the chemical imbalances that cause the anxiety and ADD.
Keep asking questions.

SUBJECT:    RE: ADHD teen
Date:    95-12-30 14:29:46 edt    FROM:      HERMIT8185

Well, the reason this child is not on any medication is that his parent says there is nothing wrong with the child. It is her opinion that the students problem is that the student is in a 12-1-1 classroom.  It appears that the parent is in a constant state of denial and will be forever. Sad but true.  The home is a difficulty for the child because the Mom's form of punishment is to sit the child in his room for hours on end or to sit him in the corner.  I wonder how he does it. With this information I wonder why it is so hard to help him? I guess it shouldn't be . Life is complicated for this kid and this impacts his learning greatly. So much more than the ADHD. Maybe it should be enough to think that this child is away from a bad situation during the school day.  Maybe it is enough to be understanding when no one else is.  Maybe any learning that takes place is all we can hope for.  I just hope so.
He is leaving to go to high school next year and I'm concerned. He has
already had a meeting with the law.  He broke into someones house.  I don't
know what else to say? Yes and I will always still ask questions. This kid is
a real nice kid and he can be very endearing and kind! Sad.

SUBJECT:    ADD/ADHD &
Learning Styles
Date:    95-12-31 09:59:23 edt    FROM:      Cagdap

Please give me any info you have on ADD/ADHD and Learning Styles.
Thanks

SUBJECT:    Re:Concerned parentH
Date:    96-01-10 15:35:40 edt    FROM:      LAUB4

Help! I have an ADHD child who has floated along until now with not bad grades. Now, in fourth grade we discover he is not finishing work,testing poorly... We had complete testing done, privately, and just recently did a 504 plan. But who implements it? His classroom teacher is too busy, and the spec.ed. teacher says 504 plans are not her responsibility. We need advice badly.
Also, anyone know any good ADHD schools in the Baltimore area for my daughter
?

SUBJECT:    Re:Newspaper series on line
Date:    96-01-10 17:29:17 edt    FROM:      RWilson554

Susan,
Am I talking to you?
Are you talking to me.

SUBJECT:    Re:Newspaper series on line
Date:    96-01-10 17:35:35 edt    FROM:      RWilson554

Oh, I see how this works.  I ask a question, and someone answers it if they have the answer or a suggestion.  Pretty clever!!!
As you can see I'm new at this.

SUBJECT:    need advice
Date:    96-01-10 23:32:10 edt    FROM:      LAUB4

Please someone, answer me !!!

SUBJECT:    Re:Concerned parentH
Date:    96-01-11 18:24:14 edt    FROM:      Cathq

Dear  Laub,
My son also has ADHD, however he is being given help through an IEP.  I don't know much about the 504's.  Check the ADHD boards and library at Keyword "Pen" Hope this helps.  Feel free to Email me.
Cathq

SUBJECT:    Re:Newspaper series on line
Date:    96-01-12 00:58:30 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"Oh, I see how this works.  I ask a question, and someone answers it if they have the answer or a suggestion.  Pretty clever!!!
As you can see I'm new at this."
RW it's pretty amazing, isn't it?
But look at what I just did. I "cut" from your message and "pasted" it to the beginning of this one. I did that to give it a little continuity. Otherwise (as you saw) it's hard sometimes to tell who is talking to whom, and what they're talking about.

SUBJECT:    ADD WareHouse On Line!
Date:    96-01-12 11:12:21 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

I just discovered that the ADD WareHouse as a Web Page!  I have checked it out.  It is pretty cool.
The URL is:
http://www.addwarehouse.com/

SUBJECT:    Re:Concerned parentH
Date:    96-01-13 10:27:44 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<< We had complete testing done, privately, and just recently did a 504 plan.  But who implements it? His classroom teacher is too busy, and the spec.ed.  teacher says 504 plans are not her responsibility. We need advice badly.
Also, anyone know any good ADHD schools in the Baltimore area for my daughter
?>>

First, understant that the 504 plan is based on a federal civil rights law that states that you child is guaranteed access to the education the school offers and accommodation in order to do so.  If the school does not make accommodations to help your child they are actually violating her civil rights!  That said, shoving this information down the throats of the school rarely leads to coopertive teamwork.  The 504 plan does provide access to special education services should they be a necessary accommodation for your child to access her education.  Think of it like a ramp for someone in a wheelchair.  The 504 plan is like that ramp.
The "school" is responsible for implementing and following the 504 plan.  Clearly, as your son's main advocate in life, you are responsible to make sure they do so.  The classroom teacher - since she is the one providing the education, is the one who must make the accommodations for your child.  The 504 law doesn't make allowences for the teacher being too busy.  But, understand, most of what needs to be done to help a child with ADD in a classroom are not time consuming, are not expensive, are really many small things built on consistency and routine.
Check the special education library for some excellent files that will address many of these issues.  There are a good number files that can answer your questions.
Also, in each state, there is an Office of Protection and Advocacy that exists - independently of State government, and mandated by the federal govt., to help and assist parents who are in need of help and information concerning the 504 law and other diability laws.
Also, see if you can find a state office for C.A.U.S.E.  (Citizens Alliance to Uphold Special Education).  This is one of the best advocacy groups around to help parents understand and receive what is rightly theirs for their children.
You might also want to call NICHCY (National Information Center for Children
and Youth with Disabilities).  This is a clearing house of information.  They
can send you information on the federal laws, information about national
advocacy and resource lists for your state - FREE.  Their number is
1--800-695-0285.

SUBJECT:    Manifestation
Date:    96-01-14 14:28:31 edt    FROM:      Roadeee

I attend soo many manifestation conferences for suspension. Was the kids
behavior a "manifestation" of his disability? or not? Looking for advice,
research material, someone to talk to. I could write my doctoral dissertation
on this area if I knew more. I don't get to teach anymore, this dept.
chairman spends all his time in ARD, RST, and Manifestation conferences...
when I'm not writing reports or testing that is. Thanks.

SUBJECT:    Gifted ADD
Child
Date:    96-01-15 23:42:32 edt    FROM:      DonCDfire

Our 9 year old son who is gifted and has ADD has been refered to a comprehensive evaluation by his principal due to behavior problems at school.  He is in a regular 4th grade class and LEAP (Learning Enrichments Activities Program).  LEAP is our gifted program.  The LEAP kids have class together 2 hours each week.  Most of the behavior problems occur outside of his regular class room (i.e., art, music, playground, but never in LEAP).  According to the principal, "He often displays a complete lack of respect for authority, talks back to teachers and other staff, and often ignores their instructions".  He has also made threats of violence to the principal and other staff, and has threatened to destory school property.  Our son has shown no intention to carry out any of these threats.  The threats are usually made impulsively when he is mad.  He has already had 2  3-day suspensions for these actions this school year.  He is on Ritalin and it seems to help some.  The Dr. has just increased his dosage.
We understand that this behavior is not acceptable and that he may need special help to overcome the behavior problems.  We do however have some concerns about his education if he were to be placed back into a behavior disorder class room.  He was in a BD class for 1st and 2nd grade.   In our districk the students in a BD class receive about 75 minutes lees class time each day then regular students do.  Despite the reduced class time and the other problems that ADD kids have he has done very well academically.  He was placed in LEAP at the start of 3rd grade.  The districk gives the STS Educational Development Series Performance Test near the end of 3rd grade.  No special ADD accomodations were requested or give for this test.  The test results placed him at the 95th percentile nationally and almost 2 grade levels ahead.
Our questions are:  1)  Is there any special testing the we should
request the district to do as part of the comprehensive evaluation?  2)  What
can we do to insure that he recieves an education appropriate to his
abilities?  3)  Can we make the district test him to determine the full
extent of his abilities?       Ps.  We are in Illinois.

SUBJECT:    Re:New
principal update
Date:    96-01-17 22:17:35 edt    FROM:      Pearlm

Try to get the book "Negotiating The Special Education Maze" published bo Woodbine House.  You can call them at 800-843-7323.  I found it very helpful when we moved from Conn to Ohio and Ohio would not recognize CT's IEP because they have different standards and lables.
Good Luck.

SUBJECT:    Re:Gifted ADD Child
Date:    96-01-18 22:17:37 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"     We understand that this behavior is not acceptable and that he may need
special help to overcome the behavior problems.  We do however have some
concerns about his education if he were to be placed back into a behavior
disorder class room.  He was in a BD class for 1st and 2nd grade."

They need to stop suspending him and develop an effective intervention right
there in school. Rather than suspending for several days, I would recommend
*1/2 hour* in-school suspension *immediately* after verbal disrespect. No
discussion about it. He says it, he goes.

Someone should go in and observe him in the areas where he has trouble
misbehaving, and see what events surround that contribute to them. Since
these things don't appear everywhere in the school, the environment around
him (setting, teacher, classmates, task assigned, etc.) -- some of these are
part of the trigger. ARE part of the trigger. NO doubt on that score.

Where we are there's no way the level of behavior problems you describe would
warrant special class placement.

SUBJECT:    general info
Date:    96-01-19 23:31:28 edt    FROM:      TJSp

Looking for Susan. I haven't been on-line for awhile and have a general question about AOL and support groups. Please direct me. Has anyone done formal studies about the kinds of questions people ask in this type of forum.  A friend is interested in doing research (not about ADD) as to why individuals seek support on-line vs. support groups. Would it violate anyones rights to survey the entries made in a forum, categorize them and then publish that information? If there is a really obvious answer to this and I've stepped on toes here, I apologize. It was just a question posed to me as I was yacking away about how much I like taking part in forums.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Gifted ADD Child
Date:    96-01-21 09:54:43 edt    FROM:      PeterCB55

You mentioned that the school district has referred your son for a "comprehensive evaluation". Do you mean that they are going to provide the assessment services, or are they suggesting that you obtain them? It may be worthwhile to sit down with the special education team before the start of the assessment and carefully identify the specific questions you are trying to get answers for.  There is a large difference between an assessment focused on the question of "identification of an attention problem in a gifted child" vs. "identification of specific areas of social skill deficiencies in several recurring situations".  Organizing the questions may help to produce answers of more practical use to you and the school.  In the situation you are describing, the difficulties do not sound particularly related to your son's intellectual abilities, but, rather more characteristic of problems with the use/nonuse of social and emotional coping skills in an expected fashion, given several relatively frequent social situations (e.g., peer conflict, or "unwanted" limit setting by adults in school). It is not uncommon for "gifted" children with attention problems to display wide gaps between areas of intellectual "strength" (e.g, their oral language skills) and their social/emotional coping skills (e.g., peer conflict and limit setting situations). These children often have trouble tolerating frustration, handling unexpected  inconsistencies in their routines (e.g., unplanned changes in activities), dealing with real or perceived threats to their self-esteem, and coping with the word "no" when they "believe" they are in the "right". Often these children have trouble handling criticism or rejection and can "lash out" with the best of them when overloaded, confused or they have jumped to a conclusion based more on impression than fact. It is important that staff working with such children have a good sense of the specific areas of difficulty the child may experience dealing with their own "unwanted" inconsistencies. Children like this may easily recognize that they can "fly with the eagles" on specific academic tasks, yet they may be unable to appreciate the impulsive and harmful nature of their behavior in ambiguous or threatening social situations. Such problems can be actually made worse when children with these difficulties are handled in a way that focuses mostly on "after the fact" disciplinary procedures. Emphasis may be more usefully placed on followup efforts by staff to teach and then positively reinforce appropriate use of concrete and assertive coping skills that are specific to the situation. Low voltage consequences paired with consistent and heavily reinforced use of social skills may be an alternative worth considering. In this way, emphasis remains on "learning" social skills vs.  "punishing".
Good luck with the assessment
PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    Private Schools
Date:    96-01-21 12:20:00 edt    FROM:      Naeswerd

We are seriously considering placing our son in a special school for bright kids with learning disabilities.  Public school has been a disaster and he is already in the middle of 4th grade.  Our psychologist feels one school in our area is perfect for him (her daughter goes there and so she knows it very well).  The problem is that it costs $14,000/year.  There is no way we can afford this and I would greatly appreciate ideas about how we can finance this.  If you could please e-mail us  at Naeswerd @ AOL.com.  I've posted this question on two other boards and I'm not sure I'll remember which ones!
Thank you so much!

SUBJECT:    Re:general info
Date:    96-01-21 22:50:13 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"Would it violate anyones rights to survey the entries made in a forum, categorize them and then publish that information?"
Yes, I'm sorry but absolutely it would. I lead such a chat, and I would be most concerned if someone wanted to do this.
The difficulty for the participants is that when they're in a public chat room they're baring their souls in public. They have to count on everyone there to respect their privacy.
There's another problem also, and that is that since this is a written medium it's covered by copyright law as well...
I think there's a *much* better way for your friend to do this research. He or she could make a public request in a conversation folder and invite e-mail. It wouldn't be as scientific as analyzing chats ... but it wouldn't be as intrusive either, and it wouldn't violate anyone's privacy.
I hope that helps.
Susan

SUBJECT:    504 Training
Date:    96-01-21 23:36:23 edt    FROM:      Aldlr

I am a special education administrator who is setting up 504 committees in all of the schools in my district (1high., 2middles, 5 elems). Part of the plan is to provide ADD\ADHD training to all of the teachers and staff in the district. The administrative training  and special education teacher training has been successful. I'm looking for cartoons which are connected to add\adhd to liven up the school presentations as I take the training "on the road."
Any suggestions? Cartoons can be faxed to me at my office aldlr, Assistant
Director of Special Services at 914-942-3176. Thanks

SUBJECT:    TS/ADHD/PLUS
Date:    96-01-23 11:29:18 edt    FROM:      OB0

My son has TS/ADHD/Severe Anxiety disorder/ Agression disorder/LD/Bipolar
Depression. He is 11 years old and was only recently diagnosed.  His past
Psychologist during his early years never told us or the Pediatrician that he
had diagnosed him with ADHD.  I found out recently in a document file I had
to ask be released from that Dr.  Our new doctors are furious because we
could have helped my son sooner.   But my biggest problem is getting the
correct modifications on the IEP.  I'm attending my Third PPT for my son who
is homebound due to problems with medications and that he has school
phobia...nothing llike more stress on a kid. I've had to turn to our States
Dep't of Advocacy and Protection for Disabled Children because the school
won't recognize the disease...only the behavior.  ANY suggestions would be
GREAT!  OB0

SUBJECT:    Re:TS/ADHD/PLUS
Date:    96-01-24 09:41:33 edt    FROM:      OB0

If you have any suggestions contact me on AOL.  OB0

SUBJECT:    Re:Gifted ADD Child
Date:    96-01-24 23:46:17 edt    FROM:      DonCDfire

Susan and Peter, thanks for the input.
The school is going to provide and pay for the assessment testing.  The
tests that they are planning to do are:  Affective;  Roberts Apperception Test, Sentence Completion, BASC Self-report, The Hand Test, and an interview;
Achievement;  Woodcock Johnson or Wechsler Individual Achievement Test;
Cognitive;  Differential Ability Scales or WISC-III, or Woodcock Johnson.  They have not identifies the exact focus of this evaluation.  the school has requested our consent to do these tests.  We gave consent conditional on the school providing us with copies of all test results at least 10 days prior to any staffing or IEP meeting.  The school says it is against their policy to accept conditional consents.  They will not agree to provide us any information prior to the IEP meeting.
Peter, you are right that the concern is not with our son's academic
abilities, but rather with his social and emotionalk coping skils (or lack
of).  Your description of the kinds of behavioral problems that these kids
often exhibit fits our son exactaly.

SUBJECT:    Re:Gifted ADD Child
Date:    96-01-25 01:56:41 edt    FROM:      Oynk oynk

As part of the observation part of the evaluation I think you need to be sure
he is observed in the different settings you mentioned.  I have seen many
"ED" students who were later found to be LD, and acted out their frustrations
when they were not handled correctly.  It does not sound like you son is LD,
but I do think that a gifted child in an inappropriate setting can be as
frustrated as an LD child.

SUBJECT:    504 plan vs iep for add chil
Date:    96-01-25 19:37:00 edt    FROM:      LAUB4

Did we make a mistake having recently written a 504 plan for my child instead
of an iep? I am confused who helps the teachers implement the 504- the sp.
ed. teacher says its not up to her. What rights do you have with the 504 as
compared to an iep? My child's skill levels are very low in the language arts
area , especially.

SUBJECT:    Re:504 plan vs iep for add c
Date:    96-01-25 21:48:00 edt    FROM:      Miller575

Generally, an IEP in put in place by CSE if a child has an educational or education related disability. Specific testing can usually identify a discrepency between ability & actual performance.  The U.S. Dept of Education issued a ruling 9/16/91 (I think) that ADD & ADHD students whose difficulties interfere with learning can be classified as Other Health Impaired (OHI)  & given an IEP.  The school receives extra funds for each classified student.
A 504 Plan is based on Section 504 of the Civil Rights Act of 1973.  If a
child has a handicap or is preceived as having a handicapping condition that
interferes with one or more life functions, including leaning, they can have
a 504 Plan put into effect. It can be very similar or almost identical to
services & supports offered in an IEP.  But the school does NOT receive any
extra funds for a student with a 504 Plan.  In my district many parents are
being advised to change 504 plans to IEPs because of budgetary issues.   Hope
this helps.        Debbie

SUBJECT:    Re:Gifted ADD Child
Date:    96-01-25 22:22:48 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"They will not agree to provide us any information prior to the IEP meeting."
I think you meant you wanted the scores 10 days before the meeting where they discuss the results?
I have to say that if I were the tester I would not agree to that. It's an
abuse of testing to look only at the scores. They really should be presented
to you in person with the tester there ready to clarify, explain, elaborate
-- and hear and answer your questions. You will most likely get *far* better information if you do it the "regular" way on the test scores. :)

SUBJECT:    IEP
Date:    96-01-26 11:45:15 edt    FROM:      SSant73599

Last year, my son (diagnosed with ADHD in 1987) had been doing so well that they decided that he didn't need a tutor. While I couldn't argue with academic performance (he has been a straight A student since starting Ritalin), I was hesitant because he was entering fourth grade this year and I had heard that the transition between third to fourth grade was difficult. This year, while his grades have dipped slightly, he is now having difficulties with organizational skills. His teacher this year unfortunately has no clue as to what ADD is and how to deal with it. I see his self-esteem sliding and I am concerned. What are my rights as far as special education goes? Do I have the right to demand another IEP? We are from Cleveland, Ohio.
If anyone has any suggestions, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

SUBJECT:    Re:IEP
Date:    96-01-27 08:20:58 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<Last year, my son (diagnosed with ADHD in 1987) had been doing so well that they decided that he didn't need a tutor. While I couldn't argue with academic performance (he has been a straight A student since starting Ritalin), I was hesitant because he was entering fourth grade this year and I had heard that the transition between third to fourth grade was difficult. This year, while his grades have dipped slightly, he is now having difficulties with organizational skills. His teacher this year unfortunately has no clue as to what ADD is and how to deal with it. I see his self-esteem sliding and I am concerned. What are my rights as far as special education goes? Do I have the right to demand another IEP? We are from Cleveland, Ohio.
If anyone has any suggestions, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.>>
The tutor was in the IEP?  A change cannot be made to the IEP without your
consent and approval, and ditto the schools.  Did you consent to the change
(no tutor) in writing?  If not, then the old IEP is still in force.  If you
did, you can request a meeting to re-evaluate to see if the goals are being
met for the current IEP.  At this meeting you can request the IEP be altered
to meet your child's needs in fourth grade and to address his areas of
greatest struggle.

SUBJECT:    Re:Gifted ADD Child
Date:    96-01-27 22:04:18 edt    FROM:      DonCDfire

Susan,  In our school system the meeting where they determine if a student qualifies for special ed and the IEP meeting are held as one meeting.  I think that 34CFR300.562 requires the school to comply with my request.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Gifted ADD Child
Date:    96-01-28 14:10:09 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"I think that 34CFR300.562 requires the school to comply with my request."
If so, it's news to me... but that doesn't mean anything, as new rules are constantly generated on this complex subject. However, if I were an educational psychologist required to do this I would quit and get a job in the private sector as it's a very poor idea in my opinion.
That said, any IEP can be appealed at any point. The levels of appeal are multiple.
I think it's a poor idea also to have the results meeting and IEP
back-to-back. Just for starters I know I would write a much better IEP if I
had time to consider the results of the testing first.

SUBJECT:    add/odd/cd
continuum
Date:    96-01-28 22:21:45 edt    FROM:      FATCATMOM

desperately seeking references for journal articles or papers addressing the
theory that ADHD is a point on a behavioral disorder continuum that
culminates in conduct disorder if positive reinforcement and other ecological
factors are lacking.  Please repond to [e-mail]

SUBJECT:    Re:add/odd/cd
continuum
Date:    96-01-29 22:48:28 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

I don't think you'll find any such article.
Some people suspect that ODD (not ADD) or oppositional defiant disorder can
*sometimes* develop into conduct disorder if not managed well, but not
ADD.

SUBJECT:    Re:add/odd/cd continuum
Date:    96-01-30 01:19:50 edt    FROM:      PeterCB55

I'm not familiar with this particular theory. However, there is ample literature on the overlap between children with ADHD and comorbid problems with conduct disorder. You might check out Gabrielle Weiss, and Lily Hechtman's book, "Hyperactive Children Grown Up", 2nd edition, or Paul Wender's recently published, "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder in Adults" for fairly detailed reviews of the literature in this area.
PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    cookiem24
Date:    96-01-31 23:12:05 edt    FROM:      Cleveleys

We just moved to Texas from Fairfax Co.  We were fortunate to attend a Catholic school that had a resource room and saved my son through 4th grade.  He did have an IEP done through Fairfax Co.  (Flint Hill) do you know the school?  He went there for speech twice during the week. They are very good with their testing, but like anywhere else and with anyone else when dealing with your child, you need to stay on top of things.  Don't worry about the testing.  Our experience with Fairfax has been very good.  We will be home in one year and four months.  The Texas school here used the Fairfax Co. IEP.  It was very comforting to have when moving to a new area.  When you get IEP results just compare with the ones from MA.  I know a very good teacher who is excellent helping parents with testing and talking to the staff.  (She speaks their language.)  I don't know if there is a way to give you her name through the computer.  Just started On-line communicating last week.  If you had to move to a new area, be glad its in Fairfax.  They are on top of things.  So are the parents.  Recommend calling the local CHADD.  Very good support system.  Especially since you are new.  Can't wait to be home in Va!
Good luck.

SUBJECT:    Re:cookiem24
Date:    96-01-31 23:33:42 edt    FROM:      Cleveleys

Because I'm new at this didn't realize you have been typing about Fairfax Co.
since September.  I'm sorry you have been having such a bad experience.  How
are things going now?  Curious which school your child attends.  Maybe you
can't say.

SUBJECT:    ADHD and Social Skills
Date:    96-02-01 19:12:29 edt    FROM:      DTC098

I am a graduate student researching social skills deficits in children with ADD without hyperactivity.  If anyone has any information, anecdotal, professional, or scientific please respond. Thanks! DTC

SUBJECT:    ADHD and Meds.  vs modif.
Date:    96-02-01 19:50:44 edt    FROM:      JJoseph70

Hi I am a graduate student working on a research paper.
Re:    Stimulant medication vs Behavior Modifcation
    If you have any info.  on either of these or any other behavioral programs used with ADHD children I would greatly appriciate it.
    Thank you.
    JJoseph70

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD and Meds. vs modif.
Date:    96-02-02 00:34:17 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"Hi I am a graduate student working on a research paper.
Re:    Stimulant medication vs Behavior Modifcation
    If you have any info.  on either of these or any other behavioral programs used with ADHD children I would greatly appriciate it.
    Thank you.
    JJoseph70"

There's research on this; if you hunt you will find it.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD and Meds. vs modif.
Date:    96-02-02 07:22:24 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<

SUBJECT:    ADHD and Meds. vs modif.
Date:    96-02-01 18:50:44 EST
FROM:      JJoseph70

Hi I am a graduate student working on a research paper.
Re:    Stimulant medication vs Behavior Modifcation
    If you have any info.  on either of these or any other behavioral programs used with ADHD children I would greatly appriciate it.
    Thank you.
    JJoseph70>>

Have you tried contacting CHADD national 305-587-3700?  They might be able to
help direct you.  I think if you look for articles by Russell Barkley and a
Dr. Abikoff you will find something.

SUBJECT:

SUBJECT:    adhd/odd/cd continuum
Date:    96-02-03 10:29:54 edt    FROM:      FATCATMOM


SUBJECT:      adhd/odd/cd continuum
Date:    96-02-03 09:28:03 EST
FROM:      FATCATMOM

desperately seeking research discussing the existence of adhd, odd, cd as points upon a progressive disorder continuum.  can respond to [e-mail]

SUBJECT:    All my children....
Date:    96-02-03 15:12:58 edt    FROM:      Kthirty

An update.
In October I posted about Travis, number three child, who was supposed to be the normal child.  (Brother has learning and OT disabilities and sister is moderately severe asthmatic). I was exhausted and  didn't want to deal with one more area in which I had to become an expert.
Travis was diagnosed as AD/HD. We are going for a second opinion as we felt the doctor did not 'count' our reporting as important as the teachers. She kept talking about agressive behaviour and no friends. Travis was popular in his class and is in much demand in the neighborhood. He will be at buddie's houses for hours. (I know AD/HD do not have to 'fit' all the slots but she didn't listen.)
What I did do was pull Travis out of school until the district can finish all their testing. It takes months and months. From all my reading it is not recommended that a regular teacher handle AD/HD kids.
He is so lonely. He is highly social and loves kids and school and wants to go back so bad. It is only with his teacher that he felt bad and a troublemaker.
I wish, wish, wish that the school districts would speed up the process. They already have the first doctor's report. Travis is lonely, I try to teach him but I do not have the expertise.
So now I know more about more stuff than I ever wanted to. Where is my white horse, shield and lance?
Kathy

SUBJECT:    Re:

SUBJECT:    adhd/odd/cd continuu
Date:    96-02-03 18:28:20 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"desperately seeking research discussing the existence of adhd, odd, cd as points upon a progressive disorder continuum."
This view has pretty much been disproven. There is no continuum of these disorders.

SUBJECT:    Re:All my children....
Date:    96-02-03 18:31:59 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"he kept talking about agressive behaviour and no friends."
Some teachers have a relatively rigid view of socialization. Children with AD/HD often prefer to focus on one companion at a time. That's what's best for them, and the long run it's the best way for them to develop socially.  But some teachers think that any child who isn't always in the thick of it with a bunch of kids has "social problems." We went through a year of that.
:(

" From all my reading it is not recommended that a regular teacher handle AD/HD kids."
I don't think most experts would agree with that. In fact, relatively few kids truly need special education placement based solely on the ADD.
Teachers, unfortunately, vary greatly in their ability to listen to other viewpoints. Perhaps someone within the school district could negotiate an "interim" plan while your child is evaluated?

SUBJECT:    "Stigma" of ADD/ADHD?
Date:    96-02-04 19:31:54 edt    FROM:      MKayeSF

I have a 4-1/2 year old boy who is exhibiting some signs of attention deficit at preschool (constant running from room to room, difficulty listening, easily distracted and extremely disruptive), but he does not usually behave this way at home, although he is easily frustrated and distracted. He has an appointment with a new pediatrician this week (his former pediatrician was an "if I can't see it right now, it's not happening" kind of doctor, so we got nowhere with him), at which I intend to ask about testing and diagnosis.
I have been told by several people in the education system that if my child is diagnosed, he will be labeled by the public school system for life and will *have to be* in special ed classes as long as he is in the system.  Is this true, or just paranoia? (Maybe it's particular to the San Francisco public schools-anyone familiar?) This has made me very leery of even beginning testing. Any advice?

SUBJECT:    Re:All my children....
Date:    96-02-04 22:08:57 edt    FROM:      Kthirty

Susan,
In regards to placing a child with a teacher that has training and help in dealing with AD/HD children I am refering to HOW TO REACH AND TEACH ADD/ADHD CHILDREN by Sandra F. Rief.
It only makes sense to me. It is in his best interest to have a teacher who understands the disorder, who willingly wants to work with children who have it and who has the help and backup that a special ed class can offer.
Kathy

SUBJECT:    Re:"Stigma" of ADD/ADHD?
Date:    96-02-04 22:53:23 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"I have been told by several people in the education system that if my child is diagnosed, he will be labeled by the public school system for life and will *have to be* in special ed classes as long as he is in the system."
That's simply not true. It's possible the people you spoke to are one of the many who have a strong bias against the diagnosis of ADD. In fact, very few children with ADD need special classes, and the majority don't need special education period. They do sometimes get extra support in school, but that can be gotten without special education.
If you're concerned about what's going on with your child, find out what's going on. If your concerned about the educational system's reponse, get yourself educated about what the schools can and cannot do.

SUBJECT:    Re:All my children....
Date:    96-02-04 22:55:55 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Oh. Rief's book is WONDERFUL!  But... there's no system in place to educate
the teachers. Might not be a bad idea to give the school a copy of that
book.

SUBJECT:    ADD preschooler
Date:    96-02-04 23:49:13 edt    FROM:      Candace716

My three and a half year old son is in process of being diagnosed ADD non-hyperactive type. Already he has low self- esteem and does not like school  very much. We are considering enrolling him in a good local ADD school, but are concerned that he will then be grouped only with other ADD children and will be out of the mainstream. Has anyone been down this road?  Any advice?

SUBJECT:    Re:"Stigma" of ADD/ADHD?
Date:    96-02-05 09:26:30 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<I have been told by several people in the education system that if my child
is diagnosed, he will be labeled by the public school system for life and
will *have to be* in special ed classes as long as he is in the system.  Is
this true, or just paranoia? (Maybe it's particular to the San Francisco
public schools-anyone familiar?) This has made me very leery of even
beginning testing. Any advice?>>
Well.........if your child has ADD and it is not identified then the chances are he will be labeled no matter what.  Instead of being "labled" ADHD and receiving appropriate interventions, he will be labeled "Lazy, Stupid, Troublemaker," and the list goes on.
Children with ADD rarely need to be put into special education classes.  In fact, it goes against the idea of a "least restrictive environment" mandated by law.  Most children with ADD can be taught and have their needs attended to quite well in a regular classroom.
In San Francisco, you have one of the strongest state CHADD chapters in the country.  Check your local telephone information directory for the State CHADD headquarters in San Francisco.  They are very knowledgable and can direct you to a chapter near your neighborhood.
Hang in there.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD preschooler
Date:    96-02-06 19:22:04 edt    FROM:      HCTA

What sort of preschool do you have your son enrolled in? Are you certain the "curriculum" is developmentally appropriate?  Are expectations perhaps too high for your son?  Children at this age should be engaged in activities that are fun, and hands on. Is your son expected to pay attention longer than he is developmentally ready  for?.  I'm sure you've considered these.

SUBJECT:
Re:    cookiem
Date:    96-02-07 20:46:46 edt    FROM:      COOKIEM2U

Thanks for asking.  I'm glad that you have had a good experience with Fairfax.  My son goes to Hayfield.  And if I was the only one that was having problems I would say that I was expecting too much from the system.  As it is there is a least one law suit that I know of, and probably more.  Things are going better......but we are still trying to get the IEP done after the triannual testing.  I did a review of it before Christmas but refused to sign the draft.  After that sent the draft to me I sent back what changes/additions I wanted and we are still waiting.......  Maybe next year.


SUBJECT:      Re:"Stigma" of ADD/ADHD?
Date:    96-02-12 00:57:46 edt    FROM:      JJoseph70

I'm not sure where you are but in the school system I work in we do not place children who are labeled ADHD unless they have a specific learning disability.  They may be know by staff as an ADHD by teachers and staff not students.  The staff needs to know this because though a student with ADHD may not be Learning Disabled he may have learning problems in which case he could have classroom work modified.  If you have any questions feel free to contact me, I am a special education teacher.


SUBJECT:      adhd help in N.C.
Date:    96-02-13 20:20:09 edt    FROM:      ALX 25

My aunt's granddaughter has recently been diagnosed with adhd.  Because her
homelife in Georgia, with her mom, is very unstable she will be moving to
N.C. with my aunt. I am trying to find out of any support groups, schools, or
other information that may be in N.C.  They currently live in Saluda, which
is not to far outside of Hendersonville. Any help would be greatly
appreciated.

SUBJECT:    NEED HELP FOR ADHD CHILD
Date:    96-02-13 23:09:35 edt    FROM:      LAUB4

My child is probably the most textbook perfect case of ADHD anyone could come across. He is on dexadrine and elavil and clonidine, but this year things are getting worse.His schoolwork is slipping severely, social skills are not maturing, and behavior at home is deteriorating.  Our family is falling apart. His five year old brother yells at him, asking , why can't you listen?
We just began a 504 plan, but I am at the end of my rope.  Does anyone out
there have any suggestions? We also started with a new Dr. but I am not very
hopeful.

SUBJECT:    ADD/ADHD&Learning Styles
Date:    96-02-14 00:20:31 edt    FROM:      Cagdap

I am a special education teacher in an elementary school resource room.  I have several students with ADHD and want to help them be successful.  What is the best way to teach and what about their learning style (how big of a part does that play?).  I would appreciate any suggestions.  Many of these children are extremely bright but that is overlooked because of other issues.
Thanks!

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD&Learning Styles
Date:    96-02-14 02:33:40 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"What is the best way to teach and what about their learning style (how big of a part does that play?)."
Their learning style doesn't *cause* their ADD, but paying attention to it (and also what interests them) can be the path to teaching them.

SUBJECT:
Re:    adhd help in N.C.
Date:    96-02-14 15:34:59 edt    FROM:      LINDAOB725

I know Chapel Hill, NC (University of NC? or whatever the big college is there) has a couple excellent people on their staff for ADD problems,  I just can't remember their names right now and my ADD stuff is still in a box in the garage (we moved in Oct. and have been doing major renovations to the house).   I know that is a ways to drive from Hendersonville, but for diagnostics and getting started with an "inherited"  family, they can be a big help. There is also a chapter of CHADD either in Hendersonville or Asheville, which is close by.
OK Ratatat, who is down there?? Is it Mel Levine?

SUBJECT:    Re:adhd help in N.C.
Date:    96-02-14 23:38:26 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"I know Chapel Hill, NC (University of NC? or whatever the big college is there) has a couple excellent people on their staff for ADD problems..."
Mel Levine. Can't do any better than that.  :)

SUBJECT:    Re:adhd help in N.C.
Date:    96-02-15 09:00:35 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

>>My aunt's granddaughter has recently been diagnosed with adhd.  Because her
homelife in Georgia, with her mom, is very unstable she will be moving to
N.C. with my aunt. I am trying to find out of any support groups, schools, or
other information that may be in N.C.  They currently live in Saluda, which
is not to far outside of Hendersonville. Any help would be greatly
appreciated.??>>
You have received excellent advise from Linda.  If nothing else, maybe you can get a good referral from Chapel Hill.
Also, contact CHADD (Chidlren and Adults with Attention Deficit Disorder).  This is a national support group organization that does have some really great materials.  If you can't find a local or nearby chapter, call the national headquarters and join - just to get their materials and access to their resources.  1-305-587-3700.
Their distributor (CASAT) provides a wonderful manual.  The CHADD Educator's Manual.  This is a rather important document that will "walk" anyone through the most important aspects of ADD, up to and including the laws that protect individuals who have ADD and need support in the schools (and at work!).  You can reach them at 1-800-545-5583.  The manual is about $12.
I recommend too that you contact NICHCY (National Information Center for Children and Youth with Disabilities) 1-800-695-0285.  This is a clearing house for information on disabilities.  They have tons of great information available including resources lists for each state.
And, one more....Hawthorne Education Services.  This publishing group has wonderful materials.  Call and ask for their catalog.  Among other things is the Parents Guide to Attention Deficit Disorders.  Their "guides" are arranged in lists which make them easy to use and scan.  I love them.
Good luck.


SUBJECT:      Re:NEED HELP FOR ADHD CHILD
Date:    96-02-15 09:33:39 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

I have some places for you to contact for information about this family's rights under the law.  But, first, it is illegal to separate a child from his educational source without due process in a way that consistutes a pattern (repeated suspensions) or for more than 10 days.  This is considered a "change of venue", meaning that they have transferred him to another setting!
This child has protection under the IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act), ADA (American's with Disabilities Act), and Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973.  The last two are civil rights laws and are under the auspices of the Office of Civil Rights.
The IDEA is a categorical law (meaning that specific disabilities are spelled out), that has a whole slew of very specific regulations attached to it.  There is also federal money attached to it for the schools.  If they take the money, the MUST comply with the law.
Contact the Protection and Advocacy Office in your state.  This is an office that exists to provide support and resources to parents of children with disabilities and is federally mandated.  These offices are usually located in the state's capital.  When you speak to them ask if there is a C.A.U.S.E.  branch in your state.  This is the Coalition to Uphold Special Education (that's close).  This is a really wonderful, informed group that can be extremely helpful.
Also, contact the state's Department of Education's Office of Special Education and request a copy of the Special Education Laws for the state you are in (IDEA).  The state must, at a minimum, comply with the Federal laws, but many state's exceed the requirements.
Contact NICHCY (National Information Center for Children and Youth with Disabilities).  This is an information clearning house in Washington, DC.  They have oodles of great information.  In addition, they can provide you with a resource list for your state.  Their phone number is:  1-800-695-0285.
Has the child's doctor (or person who diagnosed) met with the administration and/or teachers at the school?  Very often this sort of advocacy is all a school needs to get it act together.  Also, there are advocates for "hire" in many states who will go into the schools and deal with them for the parents, especially when the relationship has become so adversarial that the parents can no longer deal with the school effectively.
Hawthorne Education Services has a wonderful collection of materials for
practitioners, parents and teachers.  They publish a series of GUIDES that
are excellent.  They are made up of easy to follow and use lists which target
very specific issues.  Also, they carry a terrific book to help parents (and
teachers) help kids with academic challenges - Taming the Dragons: Real Help
for Real School Problems.  I highly recommend that you request their catalog
and take a look.  1-800-542-5583
Good luck.  Your friend clearly needs empowerment.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD&Learning
Styles
Date:    96-02-15 09:35:26 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<What is the best way to teach and what about their learning style (how big
of a part does that play?).  I would appreciate any suggestions.  Many of
these children are extremely bright but that is overlooked because of other
issues.  >>
Hawthorne Education Services has a wonderful collection of materials for
practitioners, parents and teachers.  They publish a series of GUIDES that
are excellent.  They are made up of easy to follow and use lists which target
very specific issues.  Also, they carry a terrific book to help parents (and
teachers) help kids with academic challenges - Taming the Dragons: Real Help
for Real School Problems.  I highly recommend that you request their catalog
and take a look.  1-800-542-5583

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD&Learning Styles
Date:    96-02-15 21:43:31 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"Also, they carry a terrific book to help parents (and teachers) help kids with academic challenges - Taming the Dragons: Real Help for Real School Problems.  I highly recommend that you request their catalog and take a look.
1-800-542-5583"
Sigh... I talked to the people at Hawthorne yesterday and they didn't have
Taming the Dragons in their computer because it will be in their August
catalog. They are *trying* to make it available before then but couldn't give
me any guarantees.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD&Learning Styles
Date:    96-02-16 11:28:13 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<
Sigh... I talked to the people at Hawthorne yesterday and they didn't have
Taming the Dragons in their computer because it will be in their August
catalog. They are *trying* to make it available before then but couldn't give
me any guarantees.>>
NOT the end of the world....Barnes and Noble can order them for people!
:-)

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD&Learning Styles
Date:    96-02-17 01:09:17 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"NOT the end of the world....Barnes and Noble can order them for people!
:-)"

NOT necessarily... :/ There has been a "glitch" in the delivery system to
Barnes and Noble as well. All in all, not a stellar week for TTD.

SUBJECT:    need
help for adhd child
Date:    96-02-18 16:30:24 edt    FROM:      LAUB4

please, someone, answer my question posted 2-13-96

SUBJECT:    Opinions, please???
Date:    96-02-18 18:57:20 edt    FROM:      Heyentah

I am a CA. state RSP teacher working on my Masters. I am expected to
participate in a debate forum coming up on Tuesday, 2-20-96 regarding
students w/ ADD being educated in the general ed class. My position is that
in most cases (excluding students with ADD and a disability) these students
belong in the LRE of the general ed classroom. Id love to have mail
supporting OR disagreeing with my position. Please send a note to
[e-mail]! Many thanx
*>*
\_/  Heyentah

SUBJECT:    NEED HELP-I care!!
Date:    96-02-19 01:10:28 edt    FROM:      Heyentah

I will ask some local professors for ideas, but we will need more information. Please e-mail me directly. Where do you live? How old is your son? Why did you change doctors? If you are not hopeful, why not? Could you change doctors again, or are there insurance concerns? Other possibilities may include contacting the Special Education Department of the University of Oregon at Eugene. Ther are many noted specialists there. Does your son have any other health concerns? Has he had an extremely thorough physical? Does your family have any counseling? (Especially in the spiritual realm.) What kind of a support system do you have, eg: friends, family, church/temple, etc? Please contact me.
*>*
\_/ Heyentah

SUBJECT:    Re:NEED HELP FOR ADHD CHILD
Date:    96-02-19 02:49:21 edt    FROM:      PeterCB55

There are many things that can "go wrong"  even when everyone is trying to be helpful in dealing with a "textbook perfect" case of ADHD. To start with, medications do not always bring anticipated relief. In some instances, multiple medications used to treat multiple symptoms can be helpful, while in other instances they introduce confounding or unwanted effects that make it difficult to sort out desired from undesired effects. . While your son may be well treated with his medications, I would want to be reassured by whomever is prescribing them, that this "combination" is targeting the most disruptive of his symptoms in the most effective means possible and with the fewest side effects. Frankly, I am troubled by your comment that you are not very hopeful about your new Dr.  I would suggest that you contact this physician and speak directly with them about your concerns. Most physicians who work with children like your son appreciate the fact that sometimes everything seems to go to *&%$#@ in a handbasket despite your best efforts. A little realism and clarity from those professionals who are working with you can help to provide a reference point when everything seems to be slipping from view.
You also mention that your family is "falling" apart, your son's behavior at home is deteriorating, and you are feeling at "the end of your rope". This sounds like a  "family plus ADHD child on overload" situation to me. I would suggest that you locate someone in your area to consult with who has expertise in working with children and families with ADD.  For example a psychologist or other qualified mental health professional would be a good starting place. Then meet with them and ask them to help you make a list of all of the problem areas that need attention within each setting (e.g., home, school, friends etc), and to rank order which problems can wait and which ones are "critical" and need immediate attention (e.g., safety and health issues). Then carefully review what you have tried in the past address the most critical problem areas and what you have learned from your previous efforts. Also consider  whether there are situational factors (e.g., changing levels of support at school/home, a lack of  time, energy, patience, and skills among the adults etc.) that may be undermining your efforts. Sometimes taking steps to shore up the adults and teachers who care for your child is a necessary first step vs. the usual assumption that "more time, more interventions, and more sophisticiated technology will necessarily yield a more powerful impact". Finally, when I am confronted with situations like this, backing up, talking it over with peers (either a friend or professional), reflecting carefully on what I have learned from previous change efforts and soliciting good professional consultation offers me the best hope of figuring out what are modest but realistic next steps that can lead me out of  the hole I am in. Working with children like your son can be very challenging, and at times simply overwhelming. Hang in there.
PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    Gifted and ADHD
Date:    96-02-21 00:27:24 edt    FROM:      ILEOFVIEW

Hi  - new here.  I have a friend, who's son (age 10) is in the gifted program
with my son and he has ADHD.  He is on medication and it seems to control him
as best it can.  However, the pressing problem, at this point, is that his
mother says "he won't write anything down - never would - absolutely refuses"
He is allowed to test orally and is given certain concessions by his teachers
- but she said that he won't take the notes down from the blackboard.  He *can* fill out forms if he does it slowly and deliberately - and has no time constraints. After our conversation, it sounded to me as if it isn't that he "won't" write things down, but that he "CAN'T"!  I told her to get (back) in touch with our local chapter of CHADD; but if anyone can help with this problem, all help is appreciated.  It sounds like an additional learning disability?  Or is this something that is normally attributed to ADHD?  She (it seems to me) enables him an awful lot.  His parents and sisters do a lot of his projects for him as they don't want to see him fall (or fail!)

Thanks!

SUBJECT:    Re:Gifted and ADHD
Date:    96-02-21 01:11:55 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"After our conversation, it sounded to me as if it isn't that he "won't" write things down, but that he "CAN'T"! "
OF COURSE. And it's quite common with ADD. Getting in touch with CHADD is an excellent starting point.
For neutral language I recommend describing behavior as "doesn't," not
"won't" or "can't." But of the two, "can't" is far more likely!

SUBJECT:    Re:
gifted and ADHD
Date:    96-02-21 14:06:23 edt    FROM:      Naeswerd

My son is 10 and was diagnosed with ADHD at 3 1/2.  He is also very intelligent, but has always had difficulty writing.  We were always told "He is perfectly capable of producing neat writing when he puts his mind to it!" This year, we had a full child study team evaluation of him, including and occupational therapist.  On the fine motor proficiency test, he scored in the SECOND percentile!  His age range skewed for fine motor control was 4 1/2 years old.  He has been in the same school since kindergarten and my question was "Why wasn't this picked up early??"    The answer "We don't know, but sometimes when you have a kid this smart they find ways to do what they don't like to do, and this is probably what his teachers thought he was doing."


SUBJECT:      Re:NEED HELP FOR ADHD CHILD
Date:    96-02-21 17:25:31 edt    FROM:      MzSAW

my son is 15, was about 11 before being diagnosed...  he also takes dexdrine but i don't think we have found the right combination yet.  have been to several seminars which really don't give much relief as finding the right combination of medication.  fortunately I located in Ohio an organization called the Ohio Coalition for the Education of Handicapped Children.  They have been a godsend.  they have helped tremendously in the school system - which was a true nightmare.  they also told me about other agencies for testing, etc., outside of the school system.  It took two years of work, and I'm pretty sure everyone in the school district from the Superintendent down, knows me and my son, but bottom line, he is intitled to a free and "appropriate" education according to federal law.
I didn't see how old your son was?  Home situation requires a lot of patience.  But sometimes you just want to cry because it seems that the ADHD child is always in turmoil.
You may email me at [e-mail] if you care to discuss further

SUBJECT:
Re:"Stigma" of ADD/ADHD?
Date:    96-02-21 17:39:31 edt    FROM:      MzSAW

I can't speak for California, but in Ohio every child is entitled to and IEP (Individual Education Plan) if he qualifies for special education.  This IEP is reviewed as often as you like, but at least annually.  It took me two years, the assistance of a counselor from the OH Coalition for the Education of Handicapped People, an outside agency doing independent/indept testing of my son versus the school's lopsided testing results, and the hiring of an outside behavior consultant to get me to sign an IEP, (which you are not required to - but the school systems don't exactly mention that to you - unless they know you are knowledgeable).  The IEP has my son in some regular education (mainstream) classes and some model classes (where there is extra help).  We review this at least every semester change.  We also have the guidance counselor teaching my son social skills, (appropriate language, reaction to confrontation...ect.) which was designed by the behavior consultant as part of the IEP.
I do believe once they are labled Special Education the system will still look at that.  I know there was big emphasis on placing the ADHD child in behaviorally handicapped classes, which I am adamently(?) against. Bottom line, there are small changes everyone can make to make school a more tolerable situation for all....I am presently working on trying to get an in-service done for the entire school system for ADD, they have only been doing it for teachers my son deals with..which is ot the only people he comes in contact with.
If you care to discuss further...email is [e-mail]

SUBJECT:    Re: Undiff.
ADD, placement
Date:    96-02-21 19:33:19 edt    FROM:      ECiaurro

I have a depressed 15 y.o. with Undiff. ADD, a minor lang.-based LD, and some self-esteem issues.  Meds were not recommended, as they are usually not as successful on Undiff. ADD.  He has issues with homework, getting up in the morning, and general teenage obnoxiousness (which seems more intense in ADD kids!)  I am looking for a private school placement for him.  I would like to keep him at home (Boston area) but will send him to board if it was the best school for him.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

SUBJECT:    HELP-School/Weapon
Date:    96-02-21 19:45:52 edt    FROM:      SHams

My son is ADHD, 14 years old and is in big trouble.  I need to know if he has any legal rights in regards to the following.  Before I begin I should state that I have had an on-going battle with his school in regards to giving him his med's.  For the first 4 months it was because he would forget to go to the office and pick them up and the secretary just couldnt take the time to call him down.  After convincing them that they are required to make sure that he gets them things were going smoother up until approx. 2 weeks ago when a teacher that he was having trouble with previously  but was doing better recently decided to tell my son that "I should call your mom and tell her you do much better without your med's"  at which point my child starting picking up his med's but then threw them in the garbage can because he idolizes this teacher and did not want to upset him.  I spoke to the principal and as of today it should change as the teacher recinded his comment and my son agreed he needed to take them.  Well, what happened yesterday is what I need input/advise on:  He evidently forgot that he had a jack knife/switchblade in his pocket he realized it when he reached in for a pen in the morning but left it in there untouched all day (I might add he did take his med's in the morning), well when he got on the bus (unmedicated) at the end of the day he proceeded to take out the knife and show it to some kids and at one point  my child pointed it at child that constantly harasses everyone around him and told him to shut up.  He did not touch him with it and then put it away at.  I received a call that night from the bus driver who told me how my son's behavior was going down hill again and she could tell he was not on his meds she also mentioned the knife stating she heard word that he had one and for me to make sure that it never happened again (which I did I knew it away).  I received a call from the Asst. principal this morning and he stated to me that he thought that the med issue was resolved and that he was aware of the knife incident but it went no furthur.
Well 30 minutes later I get a call that I must pickup my son because he spoke
with the principal and by law he must be removed and more than likely he will
be expelled from all of the schools in the state. I will have to have a
meeting with the School Superintendant and then probably the Board Of
Education.   Sorry to ramble on but I would like to know if being that he was
not on his med's does he have any additional rights because in this state
there is zero tolerance when it comes to weapons.  ( I totally agree with
this policy but my child is a good kid, he did something extremely impulsive,
I believe because he was not on his meds, he is extremely depressed over
this. Please Help.

SUBJECT:    Re:NEED HELP FOR ADHD CHILD
Date:    96-02-21 22:24:51 edt    FROM:      LAUB4

To PeterCB55 and Heyentah: Thank you for your thoughtful responses.  We are having a tough time of it, but we meet with our new therapist this week for the 2nd time. My child is a tough one- he wears me out in every way. A 10 min homework task took him 3 hrs. tonight. It's not that he can't do it- it's the distractibility.  My husband and I clash over how to deal-a problem we'll try to work on. the 504 seems not to have changed things much at all- esp. as far as homework goes.I have mixed feelings as to whether having him do less is helping or sending him the message that if he procrastinates longer ,someone(dad) will say forget it, and he's manipulating us all.
What do you all find works best regarding accomodations?  He also gets nasty
when he's tired and his meds have worn off. Dad ignores this and I feel I
should be supported and not spoken to with such disdain.  I'm the one who is
the bad guy- trying to get him to do his best.  As I 've said, I'm
exhausted!!!

SUBJECT:    Re:NEED HELP FOR ADHD CHILD
Date:    96-02-21 22:29:58 edt    FROM:      LAUB4

Forgot to ask:
anyone know a good private school in the Baltimore area for LD/ADHD ?

SUBJECT:
Re:    Undiff. ADD, placement
Date:    96-02-22 00:27:29 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

This isn't true:
" Meds were not recommended, as they are usually not as successful on Undiff.
ADD. "
That's old information; medication can be tremendously effective.
I'm not saying you should use medication for your child but I think it would help to make that decision based on the most-current information.
If you want to research it further yourself, use keyword: MEDLINE.

SUBJECT:
Re:    NEED HELP FOR ADHD CHILD
Date:    96-02-22 00:31:31 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"My child is a tough one- he wears me out in every way. A 10 min homework task took him 3 hrs. tonight. "
There is no way that 10 minutes of homework is *that* important. Your sanity and your family's inter-mental health is *far* more important. Just don't do this.
" He also gets nasty when he's tired and his meds have worn off. Dad ignores this and I feel I should be supported and not spoken to with such disdain."
I agree it's not good for him to talk to you that way, but I don't think there's anything you'll be able to do or say *while it's going on* to change it.
Work with the new therapist on these problems. They're tough ones but I do think things can be better for you.
Now-that doesn't mean you were supposed to somehow, magically "know" how to handle these problems! Good parents don't raise perfect children-they are willing to get help when they need it... in fact those parents are *outstanding.* Don't you ever let anyone tell you any differently. :)

SUBJECT:
Re:    Undiff. ADD, placement
Date:    96-02-22 08:03:56 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<I have a depressed 15 y.o. with Undiff. ADD, a minor lang.-based LD, and
some self-esteem issues.  Meds were not recommended, as they are usually not
as successful on Undiff. ADD.  He has issues with homework, getting up in the
morning, and general teenage obnoxiousness (which seems more intense in ADD
kids!) >>
I am assuming that by Undiff ADD you mean ADD without hyperactivity?  This is my daughter...and myself.  We both take Ritalin with HUGE success.  Makes me wonder if your child's doctor is really up to date on ADD!

SUBJECT:
Re:    HELP-School/Weapon
Date:    96-02-22 08:13:27 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

>> Well 30 minutes later I get a call that I must pickup my son because he
spoke with the principal and by law he must be removed and more than likely
he will be expelled from all of the schools in the state. I will have to have
a meeting with the School Superintendant and then probably the Board Of
Education.   Sorry to ramble on but I would like to know if being that he was
not on his med's does he have any additional rights because in this state
there is zero tolerance when it comes to weapons.  ( I totally agree with
this policy but my child is a good kid, he did something extremely impulsive,
I believe because he was not on his meds, he is extremely depressed over
this. Please Help.>>
This is a tough one that is being depated in many states.  As of now, I believe that there are special arrangements that can be made for your child.  If they remove him from school for more than 10 days it is considered a change of venue and they are required to provide him with educational services at the new site (your home).  The school must go through due process under the I.D.E.A. and your child's current IEP and accommodations must be maintained until the due process hearing is finished.  When a weapon is involved it may change things - this is the part I don't know.
It seems to me that your child should have some severe consequences for the incident with the knife.  In my book there is NO excuse for that - meds, no meds - whatever.  It was dangerous.  However, expelling your son for life from accessing his education that YOUR tax dollars pay for seems extreme.
Contact your state's Protection and Advocacy Office for advise.  These
offices provide information and support to parents and are federally mandated
to exist in each state.  They are ususally located in the state's
capital.

SUBJECT:    IEPvshomeschool
Date:    96-02-22 11:16:17 edt    FROM:      Rje6454

browsing AOL first time and found this special ed. section.  After 7 years of
public school
hassles over IEP, and lack of compliance, I tried homeschooling.  It wasn't
easy at first but it
got much better.  If you are truly desperate and want to give your ADHD son
or daughter the best
chance of psychological and academic success---seriously consider
homeschooling. Get the
public school system out of your life!  How much they are willing to do to
help your child is too
dependent on  policies and personalities.  If you choose to stick it out,
know your rights, and defend them.  A good looking IEP that meets State
regulations but isn't working for your child is
worthless.
rje6454
rje6454

SUBJECT:    Re:HELP-School/Weapon
Date:    96-02-22 20:52:56 edt    FROM:      COOKIEM2U

Sounds like Fairfax County, Virginia to me.  If you are in Virginia email me and I know of someone that can give you guidance.  In most states the school is required to sign that the child took the medicine, etc and a log must be kept.  If you son is on a controlled substance (Ritalin, etc) then I would check into the legality of the school secretary administrating the medicine.
Cookie

SUBJECT:    Punishment for ADD?
Date:    96-02-23 01:40:20 edt    FROM:      ElfDreamer

My 12-year-old son (7th grade) is ADD-diagnosed and eligible for SE services since 1st grade. We moved from California to Tennessee 2 years ago, and he is suddenly failing every class. He is also in a school which has extremely strict disciplinary policies. (They still had corporal punishment up to 2 months ago..) If a student is "written up" (reported for any violation, ranging from chewing gum to carrying a gun) 10 times, they are automatically placed in an "alternative" school for children with behavioral problems. It basically amounts to a lock-up facility, with each child in a separate cubicle 7 hours a day. My question is this-my son has been written up several times for things which stem from the ADD-forgetting to bring a book to class, turn in a report, impulsive behavior (like talking out of turn in class), etc. None of his violations are for anything like fighting or violence. Regardless, he is on the verge of the 10th write-up. Can the school system remove him from his regular school for behavior which stems from a documented ADD condition?
Please help-we have meetings with the school coming up very soon.
Thanks...

SUBJECT:    ADHD CHILD
Date:    96-02-24 19:34:50 edt    FROM:      ANGIE97266

I WAS TOLD BY THE PRINCIPAL AT MY CHILDS SCHOOL THAT MY CHILD WHO HAS BEEN
DIAGNOSED AND IS CURRENTLY ON RITALIN DID NOT FALL UNDER THE SPECIAL EDUCTION
CATEGORY WHEN IT CAME TO GUIDELINES, RIGHTS, ETC.  I DO NOT BELIEVE HE KNOWS
WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.  COULD SOMEONE PLEASE LET ME KNOW THE LAWS
REGARDING THIS.  THANK YOU.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD CHILD
Date:    96-02-24 22:56:44 edt    FROM:      Kthirty

This is exactly what I was told this past Friday. After four months of dealing with testing and waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. I was told that my son does not need a teacher trained in ADHD kids and he does not need a teacher that has aide help. There is an inclusionary classroom in a school across town where he could go. But what it boils down to is that if they recommend he go there THEY will have to PAY for his transportation out of their budget. I can go and beg the other school to take him. But next year they may not have inclusionary classes. It changes from year to year. The site based management approach. So every year we are going to be wandering from school to school if we want to find a class with a trained teacher and one who has help.
That and other things with this long drawn out approach have pushed me to the bottom of the well. After going into the bathroom, turning on the shower, the sink, the fan and crying my eyes out....I went to the bookstore and found another helpful book-MOTHERS TALK ABOUT LEARNING DISABILITIES by Elizabeth Weiss.  best wishes to you all,  Kathy

SUBJECT:    I.T.P.
Date:    96-02-25 19:29:29 edt    FROM:      SHams

Could someone please explain or provide information on what an I.T.P. is for
a teenager with ADHD.  Thank You.

SUBJECT:    Re:add/odd/cd continuum
Date:    96-02-25 23:36:25 edt
FROM:      OutThink

in response to this message:
"desperately seeking research discussing the existence of adhd, odd, cd as
points upon a progressive disorder continuum.  can respond to
[e-mail]"

I recently attended a seminar presented by a Dr. from the Barkley Clinic in Boston, MA.  The title was ADHD and ODD.  The premise presented was that ODD develops over time and when it occurs the child has essentially become "emoitionally bankrupt" from negative reinforcements.  You may want to contact the clinic or look in one of their newsletters for more information on their findings.
(sorry, I can't seem to remember the presenters name right now. it'll come to me tomorrow morning I bet!).
Roberta

SUBJECT:    Re:add/odd/cd continuum
Date:    96-02-26 23:39:21 edt    FROM:      Kthirty

What does ODD stand for?
Kathy

SUBJECT:    Re:add/odd/cd continuum
Date:    96-02-27 19:13:11 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

" The premise presented was that ODD develops over time and when it occurs the child has essentially become "emoitionally bankrupt" from negative reinforcements.  You may want to contact the clinic or look in one of their newsletters for more information on their findings."
I'm not at all sure that's a valid description. I have a child who *looks* quite "ODD"-if she hasn't had her Ritalin. She really hasn't had a lot of negative feedback (there isn't a lot of negative to comment on.)
I think it's a natural tendency in ADD to be somewhat oppositional. I do think it builds over time, but I don't agree on the cause of it.

SUBJECT:
Re:    add/odd/cd continuum
Date:    96-02-27 19:13:41 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"What does ODD stand for?'
Opposition Defiant Disorder.

SUBJECT:    Re:add/odd/cd continuum
Date:    96-02-28 01:37:08 edt    FROM:      PeterCB55

ODD may develop over time; however, I would take issue with the notion that it reflects a sense of emotional bankruptcy in response to negative reinforcement. The most widely held belief, according to what I have read is that ODD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder has it's roots in temperamental features that are often present during the early childhood and preschool years. It represents a cluster of relatively stable and disruptive characteristics that include irritability, easily aroused noncompliance, defiance, poorly controlled temper, a tendency to blame others and occasionally vindictive behavior. Often children with ODD seem to have an exquisite sensibility for real or perceived injustice, criticism or efforts by others to exert control over them.  they tend to react rather predictibly at times to these  real or perceived threats with situationally inappropriate responses that can vary in the degree of forcefullness, but usually reflect efforts to increase personal autonomy or self-control. Manyof the children I see with respond to even normal limit setting by "standing" on a "no" and only with great encouragement and support move toward a "yes" in social situations. Other's overreact to the emotional tone in their parents voice and respond  to any hint of "negativisim" with escalating defiance and anger. In children who manifest ODD symptoms and happen to be verbally skilled, you often see parents exhausted and worn out by their children's "lawyerlike" skills at converting virtually any topic of conversation into a "debate" that knows no end. Quick to judge, these kids tend to lead with interpersonal defensiveness and only after the white flag is raised will they drop their guard and relate in a more relaxed and flexible fashion. These symptoms often appear in combination with ADD symptoms, but not exclusively. Given the longstanding nature of the disorder it often persists in various forms into adulthood. As parents, these individuals who in a sense are "emotionally" challenged must turn around and deal with their own offspring who sometimes manifest the same patterns, and that can represent a real effort on both sides.
PeterCB55


SUBJECT:      add/math tests/help
Date:    96-02-29 12:04:53 edt    FROM:      DDevars

First of all I am new to AOL and just found this area.  It's been very interesting reading some of the messages.  It's kind of nice to know you're not the only one.
I have a 12 year old daughter.  She was diagnosed with ADD when she was going into the 4th grade.  She is currently on 20mg of adderall.  Testing appears to be a big problem for her.  Especially MATH!  She appears to know it while we help her study but when we get her test paper back she usually gets C's and some D's.  Most of the problems that she has wrong were just silly mistakes.  You can tell by the test that she knows how to do the problems.  Usually the test consist of sections with about 4 problems in each section which are worked out the same way.  She usually will get two to three of them correst and the other one or two due to silly errors of course are wrong.  Is this just something that I should expect from her since she is ADD??? Or is there something I can be doing to help her.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!!!!

SUBJECT:    Re:add/math
tests/help
Date:    96-03-01 01:38:00 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"Most of the problems that she has wrong were just silly mistakes."
This is a classic ADD learning pattern, and it often shows up in math, where things must be done precisely and in the right order.
Look for a pattern to the mistakes. Does she make more mistakes in the middle and end than at the beginning? Then-if the goal of testing is to find out what she knows-the test could be broken up into smaller chunks.
If it's a timed test for math facts, test her with flash cards (bypass the pencil-for many kids with ADD their brains "scramble" to a greater or lesser degree any time they have to pick up a pencil.)
Gradually increase the chunks of test she does at one time... BUT allow her to take it in an untimed way.
Teach her to allow her mind to wander *between* problems, and not in the
middle of them. The child who gets distracted in the midddle of a subtraction
with complicated "borrowing" in it is a child who probably just got that
problem wrong.

SUBJECT:    ADHD CHILD NEEDS HELP
Date:    96-03-01 17:16:06 edt    FROM:      Dunc1000

We have a 12-year-old boy with ADHD.  We have tried everything and are at our wits end.  In January, we enrolled him in a Christian Boarding school where my husband's sister works - hoping that with a consistent and structured environment he would have a chance to succeed.  The school has informed us that they cannot supply the manpower to handle his difficulties in the dorm.
He will be returning permanently next week at Spring Break.  We need help -
his behavior is crude and impulsive.  His therapist thinks he is moving from
oppositional to conduct disorder.  We need the right kind of residential
center setting for him but don't know where to look. He has a tender heart
and is very bright.  He wants to succeed but does not seem to be able to
control his impulses.

SUBJECT:    UPDATE ON HOME/SCHOOL
Date:    96-03-01 23:49:18 edt    FROM:      LAUB4

TO PETER CB55;
JUST TO LET YOU KNOW-WE LIKE OUR KNEW DOC-SHE SEEMS TO BE ABLE TO HELP US
WITH OUR CHILD AND OUR FAMILY SITUATION. WE NEED TO CHANGE SOME THINGS AT THE
REVIEW OF THE 504- LIKE I REFUSE TO SIT WITH MY CHILD FOR 2-3 HOURS OVER
HOMEWORK. WE WILL DEMAND IT TO BE REDUCED.I STILL WORRY A BIT ABOUT THE
MESSAGE IT GIVES OUR SON, BUT OUR SANITY IS MORE IMPORTANT! WE EVENTUALLY MAY
CHANGE MEDS, BUT THAT COMES NEXT.  THANKS FOR YOUR WISE RESPONSE TO OUR
COMMENTS.

SUBJECT:    Test
Date:    96-03-02 13:42:17 edt    FROM:      CarlaTAG

Does anyone have any information on the "Quay Peterson"? I think it is a
behavioral checklist but I've not seen it before.I am advocating for an 8
year old disagnosed with ADHD and the school used this test to disagnose this
child as having "psychotic behaviors".  I need any information I can get on
this.  Thanks
CarlaTag

SUBJECT:    Re:Test
Date:    96-03-02 23:44:03 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Hmmm.... the Quay Peterson I'm familiar with is just a systematic way of observing a child and recording the behaviors seen, which are divided into "on task and off-task."
I am certified to teach behaviorally and emotionally disordered children and have never heard it used to label a child "psychotic."
However, some states use the term "emotionally disturbed" instead of
"behaviorally disordered." The first is the older term, but does not mean the
child is pyschotic.

SUBJECT:    Re:add/math tests/help
Date:    96-03-03 08:57:00 edt    FROM:      VTLVdocs

As has already been pointed out many ADD students and adutlts do have difficulty with the organization of "chunks."  You also may want to consider ruling out any type of visual perceptual problem as that may be a contributing factor.  It has been my experience that many of the children struggling with ADD have an oculomotor (eyemovement) dysfunction also.

SUBJECT:
Re:    add/math tests/help
Date:    96-03-03 16:25:31 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"It has been my experience that many of the children struggling with ADD have an oculomotor (eyemovement) dysfunction also."
The problem with this is that the eyes do not *cause* the problem. They merely reflect the disorganization going on in the brain.
Of course if a child has a learning disability, there may well be a perceptual difficulty of some kind, but true perceptual problems cannot be detected by observing eye movements.
The child with ADD is likely to attack his or her work in a scattered and unfocused way. By taking a highlighter and ruler and breaking the work into sections the task can become more manageable. Often when one child starts doing this, other children begin also. It often benefits children who have no known difficulty.
Another good approach when a page contains several kinds of problems:
Suppose the child has subraction problems to do. Some involve borrowing, and some don't. The child can use a highlighter to circle all the ones that will require borrowing before beginning. Then he can do all the problems that involve borrowing first. There is no academic gain to doing them in mixed order, but it's important that he know *when* to borrow. You don't lose that benefit with this approach.
If the problems are mixed addition and subtraction, the child can highlight the plus signs with one color and the minus with another. This "raises his level of awareness" that the problems are mixed.
Sometimes these tricks don't have any real visual impact; they just get the
child's attention more focused on some of the details that can make the
difference between and A or B and a D or F.

SUBJECT:    Re:add/math tests/help
Date:    96-03-03 21:08:41 edt    FROM:      VTLVdocs

Thank you for the insight,  I whole-heartedly agree with the concept that you cannot evaluate attentional disorders with eyemovements.  I probably should have stated that an innefficient oculomotor system often can be confused with an attentional problem.  This is caused by the inefficient "chunking" occuring as an "input" problem rather than an "processing" one.  My comment was intended to make note that there are numerous components to attention.


SUBJECT:      Re:HELP-School/Weapon
Date:    96-03-04 14:51:35 edt    FROM:      Lucky27021

In most states a child cannott be suspended for more then 7(?) days or permanatly because of behavior caused by a disability.  in oregon therr is a wonderful group called cope, they are advocates for children with disabilities, try to find one in your area they are great!!!!!!   good luck.


SUBJECT:      Re:add/math tests/help
Date:    96-03-04 19:56:08 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"I probably should have stated that an innefficient oculomotor system often can be confused with an attentional problem."
Oh, I hope not. Not by any competent diagnostician!

SUBJECT:
Re:    HELP-School/Weapon
Date:    96-03-04 19:57:46 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"In most states a child cannott be suspended for more then 7(?) days or permanatly because of behavior caused by a disability."
Well, not quite.
The child can't be suspended for more than 10 days in one school year without reconvening the IEP to either make a behavioral intervention plan or to institute a formal change of placement.
These children can and are suspended. It's just that the IEP process can't be
ignored while this is going on.

SUBJECT:    Declassification
Date:    96-03-05 14:09:52 edt    FROM:      Rje6454

I'm having my ninth grade ADHD son declassified.  I could not find any authority either a written source or a teacher that could explain to me the advantages or disadvantages of keeping a High School student classified.  I have heard of cases where colleges give students a harder time during the admission process because they have lables like perceptually impaired.  I also found out that it is standard practice in his high school to leave the classified students course choices last to be entered....  This bumps our children out of classes that are filled ,even though are children made the course selections at the same time as regular ed.  Because my son isn't dumbth enough, services are few.  Even simply things like untimed tests, seem to be a problem.  I'm currently looking at the 504 option if anyone has any info. on the disadvantages of declassification let me know.
Mike rje6454

SUBJECT:    Need Advise
Date:    96-03-05 21:08:31 edt    FROM:      SHams

I previously posted a message in regards to my son bringing a knife to school.  Since that post a lot of things have happened.  I need to say right up front I DO NOT CONDONE WHAT HE DID but I must add that he is not a violent child what he did was made an incredible mistake. He has definately done a lot of thinking and I immediately put him in counseling for problem solving.
I had quite an experience in regards to this with the school but they did stop the expullsion hearing after the superintendant learned of the NUMEROUS errors on their part in regards to my son.  (To many to list).  Well, after he reviewed all the circumstances and after consulting with the school attorney he offered the following suggestions to me:  1.  Proceed with the special education evaluation that I asked for by a facility outside of the immediate school district / 2.  My son would be homebound schooled until this evaluation was complete / 3. After that an IECP would be held to determine my sons needs, etc..  This all sounded reasonable at the time but after being contacted by the schools special education superintendant here are the results of what he intended to do:  The evaluation is not schedualed until April 11th, We still do not have a teacher lined up (They at first wanted me to transport him to the spec. ed. offices twice per week for 1 hour per day - I could not do this without risking my job), I was then told the only other teacher they could think of was on vacation for the next 2 weeks.  At that point I suggested that they try and find one near one of my relatives homes and I would transport my son there  (they live in a large city which is still in my sons school district), she thanked me and said she would try that option.  Well, today was his 10th day out of school.  Also, we are talking about approx. 1-1/2 months before this evaluation takes place, then we have the IECP to scheduale (which i'm not really sure what that entails).
Could someone please let me know what I should do.  This seems extremely
strung out, i thought there were guidelines on how long he should be out of
the school enviroment.  His phycologist did not think it was in his best
interest to be out this long..  My first and foremost concern is to get my
son back into school.

SUBJECT:    Re:Need Advise
Date:    96-03-06 22:57:36 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Of  course it's not in his best interest to be out that long.
Here's the crux of it. Did he threaten anyone with the knife? Did he destroy any property?
In other words, did he break the rule in principle or did he *really seriously* break the rule?
If he brought the knife and, say, showed it to someone, this is
challengeable.

Call the Office of Civil Rights.
If he threatened someone you are unlikely to win, but unless there are serious issues involved beyond the presence of the knife-he *already* has the rights of a disabled student.
Any time a student is considered *possibly* disabled that child has the rights of a diagnosed student until a determination has been made.

SUBJECT:
Re:    ADD and Emotional Disorders
Date:    96-03-07 08:47:03 edt    FROM:      FishToys

His emotional side probably comes from years of not addressing his ADD. I know because although my son is younger, he suffered from that same kind of fragile, angry self-destructive behavior. Think about having little or no controlover your learning, social skills and all the other pieces that make up an ADD child. Now add on divorced parents (another no control situation) and living this way, without consistant parenting for over 16 years! Perhaps his meds should be looked at for something that won't make him re-bound quite so much (try TENEX) and some strong and consistant behavioral work both at home(both) and in school. You may want to find out about 1-2-3 Magic. (a very simple but powerful technique)
When we switched our boy to an anti- hypertensive med that stayed in his system for 24 hours it enabled us to work with him more consistantly because his behavior became more consistant. We started with oral Clonidine (hard to figure out the dosage) then to Clonidine Patches(they fall off easily, burn the skin & have other side effects) and now TENEX (no side effects for him, and his sweet gentle personality was able to emerge)
Good Luck!

SUBJECT:    Re:TS with ADD
Date:    96-03-07 08:55:08 edt    FROM:      FishToys

My son has the same diagnosis. Although I take ritalin with no side effects,
he can't. Because he is so sensitive to all side effects, and my family has a
history of heart disease, we decided that anti-depressants were not a good
idea. We have finally worked our way over to the anti-hypertensives and for a
year have been using TENEX with great results. It helps to suppress his tics
and helps him to concentrate. Ask your Dr. about it.

SUBJECT:    please help add
family
Date:    96-03-12 21:35:40 edt    FROM:      Mrs jdavis

i live in california, i have always known i was different, kind of immature and irresponsile i let life guide me. i thought it was meant to be when i had a unplanned pregnancy at 19. i got married so that my baby wouldnt have to crawl around on the messy floor of my parents home and i thought i was lucky to have a guy with a job. in 3 years we had 3 children and now i am physicly dissabled due to childbirth. i left my husband who couldnt cope and have re-married. my husband is 25 and i am now 28 but we both seem about 17. i was left alone by my parents alot starting at age 5 and i realize i have no idea about taking care of a family. i went back to college in 1991 and although i got a's i didnt retain anything and soon couldnt keep up. i was tested with the woodcock johnson test an found to have a sevear memory deficit ( grade k-1 ) and a third grade math and spelling, visual / auditory processing deficit,  they did not know how becauce i graduated high school and placed 4th year college in comprehenshen and reasoning. now my dr diagnosed me with add. along with my 8 year old son who since kindergarden has been kicked out of 5 schools. he has adhd and my 7 year old daughter is failing and is being checked out to. we are all very inteligent but have horrible social skills i feel like everyone over 17 is my elder i know iam this way because i went undiagnosed for so long and now iam desparatly trying to save my children but i feel so incapable. how can i help them when i cant hardly remember to brush my teeth each day and now my house is a horrible mess no matter how hard i try . me and my son now take ridlin and zolof and it has helped him alot in the last month he is now the best in his class instead of in the office. my husband is dyslexic and has a iq of 145 but also has social problems and never graduated high school he looks to me to keep him organized and is hardly able to make a living. to outsiders we must seem like drug addicts we sertainly apear that way but we dont even smoke cigarettes or drink. im sure you can see my problem. medication isnt enough i need physical help a drill sargent to come in teach us structure, routeen and consistancy. how do i learn to cook, clean and run a family without lossing all the detials i can only do one thing at a time any now everything is urgent. do i see drs of course 4 a week between us if i can remember to show up . i make chip charts and chore lists and sceduals but i cant even follow it one day dose anyone have any sugestions other than i should have realized i was a moron and not had kids i am only able to love and not teach.


SUBJECT:      Re:please help add family
Date:    96-03-13 13:52:10 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<< i need physical help a drill sargent to come in teach us structure,
routeen and consistancy.>>
There are some wonderful parents support and training programs that can offer you help.
One you might try contacting is:  Parents Helping Parents in San Jose, CA
[phone]
Also, Contact the Protection and Advocacy Office in your state.  They can provide you with lots of valuable information about support.  The headquarters is in Washington DC (sorry no 800 number) 202-408-9514.  If you call, just ask them for the office in your state, or check with your state telephone information.  The P&A are usually located in the state capital city.  Ask for information on the Parents Training and Information program that was authorized as part of the Individuals with Disabilities Act (IDEA).
There is at least one PTI program in each state.

SUBJECT:    Re:e-mail support
groups
Date:    96-03-13 16:07:02 edt    FROM:      DNelson949

Are there any e-mail support groups for parents of children who are ADD or ADHD?  If so, please e-mail me at [e-mail].  Thanks.
Donna

SUBJECT:    Re:Fairfax Co. VA school sys
Date:    96-03-14 22:39:21 edt    FROM:      BEE1BEAR

If you are not satisfied you may ask for another IEP meeting.   Be sure that
at your IEP meeting you, the present teacher and an administrator are
present; otherwise it is not an IEP meeting.  Next, be sure to note that none
of your child's goals are being met.  This way, it is obvious for a change
either in placement or method.  I would also suggest that you do some
research on case laws concerning "Free, appropriate public education"-
there is a lot out there.

SUBJECT:    Linda Mood Bell
Date:    96-03-15 22:21:04 edt    FROM:      Celeste008

If anyone has any knowledge or experience with the Linda Mood Bell spelling workshops for ADHD kids in San Luis Obispo please post here or E-mail.
Thanks!

SUBJECT:    Re:Fairfax Co. VA school sys
Date:    96-03-18 21:28:22 edt    FROM:      COOKIEM2U

Don't know if you have been in a meeting with the school system......but let me tell you that even when they know they are in violation of federal, state, and county laws they will fight you tooth and nail.  But bring an advocate to the meeting, who happens to work for an attorney, and wham.....you have their attention.  It wasn't until they thought that we would go due process that they would even listen to you.  Guess they haven't figured on an OCR complaint.  The special education parents are having lots of problems with the county.. We know what to look for, know the laws, but you just can't get the administation to comply unless you bring out the big guns.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Concerned parent
Date:    96-03-23 21:23:29 edt    FROM:      JANCARE

DEAR MSTEN, DON'T PANIC. IF A TEACHER IS CONCERNED ABOUT THE CHILDS ATTENTION
KEEP AN EYE ON IT. IF GRADES FAIL, HAVE HIM EVALUATED BOTH PSYCHOLOGICAL AND
NEUROLOGICAL. IN SOME CASES, LIKE MY DAUGTHERS, THEY ARE JUST BORDERLINE.
EVENSO THEY DO HAVE TROUBLE STAYING ON TASK. AND AS THEY GET INTO THE HIGHER
GRADES, IT GETS MORE DIFFICULT FOR THEM. AND NO,
BEING A.D.D DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT SMART KIDS. SOME TEACHERS ARE AFRAID
TO TELL PARENTS THAT THEIR CHILD MIGHT HAVE A PROBLEM, I AM GRATEFUL THAT MY
DAUGHTERS 3RD GRADE TEACHER BROUGHT HER DIFFICULTIES TO MY ATTENTION. SPEAK
TO THE SCHOOL PSYCHOLIGIST. AND IF YOUR NOT SATISFIED TAKE MATTERS INTO YOUR
OWN HANDS.  GOOD LUCK     JANCARE

SUBJECT:    Re:Concerned parent
Date:    96-03-23 21:26:54 edt    FROM:      JANCARE

DEAR MSTENS,
PS. LABELING IN SCHOOL DOES NOT HARM A CHILDS RECORD.  AS ONE OF MY DAUGHTERS
TEACHERS SAID, IT CAN ONLY HELP THEM WHEN THEY GET INTO COLLEGE. IT WILL
ALLOW THEM THE EXTRA TIME NEEDED FOR THEM TO COMPLETE THEIR WORK.       BYE
JANCARE

SUBJECT:    ADHD and motor tics
Date:    96-03-24 11:29:43 edt    FROM:      Jshirley

I would sure appreciate some help!  My 8 year old son has been diagnosed with ADHD for almost 2 years now.  With the help of Ritalin, he has been able to be mainstreamed in a regular school class with "resource pull-out".  All of a sudden he has developed a strong motor tic-he jerks his head constantly to the side.  I haven't seen his doctor yet, but by phone was told to take my son completely off  Ritalin and was also told that if this is a tic, my son will no longer be able to take Ritalin.
Ritalin has been a blessing for our family.  There is no way my son can remain in his current class without it.  I would greatly appreciate any information other parents and educators might have regarding this.  Someone previously mentioned TENEX as an alternative to Ritalin.  ANY information regarding alternative meds. would be greatly appreciated!!  My e-mail is Jshirley.
Thanks for your support!

SUBJECT:    Re:Concerned parent
Date:    96-03-24 15:18:56 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Thank you for sharing, JANCARE, but please-turn off the "all caps." It's too hard to read. Using both upper and lower case is the way to post on-line.
Thanks.
SusanS29, Host

SUBJECT:    Re:ADHD and motor tics
Date:    96-03-24 15:20:14 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"Ritalin has been a blessing for our family.  There is no way my son can remain in his current class without it."
If your child isn't being seen by a pediatric neurologist, now is the time to
find one who is very knowledgeable about both tics and ADD.

SUBJECT:    Re:Test
Date:    96-03-25 01:03:28 edt    FROM:      SandyHolt

I agree with Susan. The Quay is a way of observing a child and you end up with a percentage of time on task over a 15 min. observation.  I can't imagine any kind of a diagnosis based on it.


SUBJECT:      Re:Linda Mood Bell
Date:    96-03-27 16:38:40 edt    FROM:      Socadream

My daughter has been thru the program with ourstanding results.  I suggest
you call their toll free  number to find out when and where their next
seminar is.  I think one just went on or is about to.  They have them every
so often.  Also check with your local chapter of LDA-they usually have alot
of info.  Check it out and good luck.

SUBJECT:    Self Awareness Curriculum
Date:    96-04-07 13:22:55 edt    FROM:      Lorelie388


I am looking forward to teaching overseas 1997-1998 school year.  Any good Leads?  Does anyone know if The International Educator has a web site or e-mail address?
I've heard that teaching in American or International schools overseas is a
great way to earn good money, work in supportive environments with high
academic standards, and travel the world.  I would love to hear from anyone
who has done this!

SUBJECT:    Ritalin use/children/ adults
Date:    96-04-13 00:56:57 edt    FROM:      Dhval

Does a child who takes Ritalin necessarily become an adult who continues to take this medication?  Does the medication correct the brain chemistry after a few years?  Does the child outgrow the need for it?  Does maturity become a factor at some point?  Please respond to Holly at [e-mail]

SUBJECT:    How old is ADD & ADHD?
Date:    96-04-13 01:05:16 edt    FROM:      Dhval

Have ADD and ADHD been around forever?  I didn't hear about it until the past decade or so.
Did we just finally put a name on it?  There have always been kids who drove their teachers and parents crazy.  They used to say these kids had a short attention span; had no self-control; had behavior or social problems; needed discipline, etc.  Nobody got medication for any of these things years ago.
Usually, they got punished.  Finally, as schools adopted "special classes",
these behavior-problem kids went there.  Do we have any adults out there who
were among these kids?  How do you feel about medication for this problem,
vs. just living with it?  You may have children of your own and have tried
both roads, so to speak.

SUBJECT:    Re:Ritalin use/children/ adu
Date:    96-04-13 17:19:15 edt    FROM:      PeterCB55

Does a child who takes Ritalin necessarily become an adult who contines to take this medication? No. For a host of reasons, many children as they are becoming adolescents, young adults and eventually adults chose to discontinue use of medications. On the whole, my guestimate is that a minority of individuals diagnosed as children elect to continue taking medication on into adulthood (about 1/3 of the group treated as children).
Does the medication correct the brain chemistry after a few years?  Many parents I am sure would wish this to be true. Instead, medications such as Ritalin and Dexadrene are believed to be effective because they provide Dopamine to two areas of the brain involved in the regulation of attention, the prefrontal cortex and the right parietal region. The prefrontal cortex is one of the areas of the brain thought to be instrumental in the deployment and regulation of attention and planning, as well as management of coordinated motor activities. There is no evidence suggesting that permanent changes occur in the neurochemistry or structure of the brain as a result of the ingestion of stimulants.
Does the child outgrow the need for it? The answer depends largely upon who defines "need".
In the eyes of many adolescents the mere fact that they must take the drug is a "sign" that they are in some way "abnormal" and this then becomes one of many reasons to discontinue taking it.
Research by Wiess and Hectman, suggests that somewhere between 25 and 30% of those diagnosed as children will manifest many if not all of the same symptoms as adults. In general two groups of adults (my guess) seem to pursue medication, those that manifest the full syndrome and experience significant disruption in many areas of their lives wihtout medictions and those adults who are otherwise "well adjusted", but working in areas that expose them to chronic problems associated with their attention deficits.
Does maturity become a factor at some point?  I would hope so. If by maturity you mean the ability to recognize one's own strengths and weaknesses, and use that information in the service of planning for the future and daily activities. In my humble opinion, maturity becomes a helpful/hurtful factor to the extent that individuals with ADD learn to cope with the demands imposed by their own particular pattern of strengths/ weaknesses more effectively,  realisticially and respectfully, (e.g., given the needs of those close to them).
PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    Re:How old is ADD & ADHD?
Date:    96-04-15 00:35:55 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"Have ADD and ADHD been around forever?  I didn't hear about it until the past decade or so.
Did we just finally put a name on it? "
It's changed names several times but it's been around... you didn't hear about it because it was so severely under-diagnosed.
"Nobody got medication for any of these things years ago.  Usually, they got punished.  Finally, as schools adopted "special classes", these behavior-problem kids went there."
Actually the great majority got no help whatsoever. Very few ended up in special classes.
Do we have any adults out there who were among these kids?"
ME! (Grin) Lots and lots, actually, who are finally being diagnosed as adults.
"How do you feel about medication for this problem, vs. just living with it?"
It's a very serious problem (or it isn't diagnosable), so "just living with
it" doesn't make a lot of sense. Medication can often be part of the
treatment but isn't satisfactory as the whole solution.

SUBJECT:    Re:Concerned
parentH
Date:    96-04-25 15:23:11 edt    FROM:      MDS8555

IMHO you should abandon the 504 plan if the reg ed & spec ed teacher won't take responsibility for it. It's doomed unless you want to get a legal advocate and force the school to respond. (They are always so friendly when you force them....) Can you go for Special Ed. identification for resource room help? I am in a very upscale community with a very ample S.Ed budget ($6-8K) and we are having the same reaction here to 504s. My son was diagnosed with ADHD in third grade is on Ritalin and I am pursuing Spec Ed ID with Other Health Impaired as the handicapping condition. I wished I'd done it earlier!  My wonderful witty creative 13 yr old boy with a WISC-3 of 122 is failing 8th grade. His grades have plummeted since January.  He was in a"guided study hall" all year with more severely handicapped students and got little if any help. I believe he needs resource room help at the high school level. My school system does very well with low ability high maintenance kids, high ability -low maintenance kids but they don't seem to get the ADD problem in high ability high maintenance students. (Does anyone's?)

SUBJECT:
ADD/ADHD Teacher Student
Date:    96-04-25 22:00:28 edt    FROM:      Carmal C

I am looking for some statistics on the ratio of students and teachers in the classroom where more than on child has ADD/ADHD and is on ritilan or any other medication.  I need this asap.
I am trying to put a proposal together and need any information you may be using in the classroom for classroom management or just how you are coping.
I have a child who has ADD and is in a classroom with several other students
with this same condition.

SUBJECT:    Re:IEPvshomeschool
Date:    96-04-29 16:16:18 edt    FROM:      SKIP D 3

I would like to talk to you more about how you structure your day with homeschooling and do you find that you need time to yourself, and how do you get that given the demands of ADHD children?

SUBJECT:    Re:How old is ADD & ADHD?
Date:    96-05-04 21:01:24 edt    FROM:      ASanderlin

ADD/ADHD were around as early as 1903 when it was noticed only it was called brain motor dysfunction.  It wasn't really observed until the mid 1970's and some of us didn't know what it was until we had our own childern tested and were made aware that we as parents suffered with it. All along I thought I was a screw up.  Now I'm 41 and on medication. Thank God!

SUBJECT:
Re:    IEPvshomeschool
Date:    96-05-05 14:21:33 edt    FROM:      Rje6454

I'm not sure if your addressing me but I can tell you that the demands on my time are lessen by the fact that we are together throughout the day.  You get to really know the ins and outs of the disorder by seeing it as it relates to schooling.  Many of the negative feedbacks that come as a result of the disruptive behavior that is stirred-up in the over-stimulating classroom envir. are diminished in homeschooling.  It's not for everyone.  It was an alternative for me, one that was not easy in the beginning but works out wonderfully now.  I actually have more free time because I can relax, and enjoy having a kid with a disability.  You get to see the positive sides instead of being bombarded daily sometimes, because he isn't like the rest.  He's calmer, happier, much accepting of himself, and when there is a problem, you can catch it, deal with it, and move on.
Magrje6454

SUBJECT:    HELP!
Date:    96-05-18 13:41:14 edt    FROM:      MarthaGray

My son just turned 14 and is in the 7th grade in Bellevue WA.  Diagnosed ADD w/o hyperactivity beginning of 5th grade.  He has the classic difficulty of memorizing abstracts-spelling, math facts, etc.  Although I feel he is capable in math problem solving, he is unable to pass the calculation exam in the amount of time provided (40 min. for 36 problems-percentages, fractions, etc.) for advancement.  The counselor feels he needs another year of remedial math rather than going on to pre-algebra in 8th grade.  My gut feeling is that pre-algebra will be a struggle, but no more so than another year of multiplying & dividing fractions.  Actually, I wonder if he ever will be able to pass this test, no matter how much exposure he gets.  I was considering requesting 504 status-the counselor suggested this-but although my son is upset about having to take another year of remedial math, he does not want to be singled out as getting any special favors  ("Everyone put down your pencils, except Elliott who has 10 more minutes").  He says he has enough social problems already and this would be the unbearable.  I feel the school system is giving up on him by putting him on the slow track and not giving him the chance to progress to higher math that I feel may be more interesting for him.  Are they right?  Should I fight this?  Has anyone else had this experience?

SUBJECT:    Re:HELP!
Date:    96-05-18 23:17:36 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<I was considering requesting 504 status-the counselor suggested this- but although my son is upset about having to take another year of remedial math, he does not want to be singled out as getting any special favors ("Everyone put down your pencils, except Elliott who has 10 more minutes").
He says he has enough social problems already and this would be the
unbearable.  I feel the school system is giving up on him by putting him on
the slow track and not giving him the chance to progress to higher math that
I feel may be more interesting for him.  Are they right?  Should I fight
this?  Has anyone else had this experience?  >>
36 math problems in 40 minutes is a pretty heavy load.  I do think you should fight this - I have done so with BOTH of my ADD children.  And when you request extended time, request how the extended time should be handled, specifically, so as not to cause your child social embarrassment.
Think of it this way, it the goal to know the subject matter and to exhibit that you know the subject matter - or to simple be fast?  Are they testing the children for knowledge or speed?  If they are testing them for knowledge then giving your son an extra 40 minutes will achieve the goal.  The information that the school wants from the test is not time-sensitive and will not self-destruct or become out-dated after the 40 minutes is up.
Also, when kids know that they have plenty of time, they tend to put less energy in the worrying about that and can concentrate on the task at hand.  With that anxiety gone, they very often don't even need the extra time.  Just knowing it is there is often enough.
They way we handle these issues with my daughter and son is that if at the end of a test period they require extra time they simple write a note on the test where the clock stopped and say, "I would like to arrange to finish this test at a later time."  Then, during either a study hall, or some other activity, sometimes going in early, they finish the test - and usually within a day.  No sweat.
If your school handles the extended time issue in a way any that is not sensitive to your child's emotional and social needs, then they are simply not being responsible educators.
So, if I had a vote, I would vote for a 504 plan (request the written policy from your district office so you know how the school administers and regulates it), custom designed accommodations to specifically meet your childs concerns-extended time whenever it is needed for any assignment or test (this is what my kids have), assignments given in writing (not just out loud), etc..., and I would possibly vote for pre-algebra in 8th grade with some summer tutoring during August to get boned up berfore school starts (this you will probably need to arrange on your own).

SUBJECT:    Re:HELP!
Date:    96-05-19 01:25:15 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

Thank you Ratatat,

I, too, was wondering about the 36 in 40 minutes and the teacher pointing out the child.  You said what had to be said beautifully, as you always do.

SUBJECT:
Testing
Date:    96-05-22 14:18:59 edt    FROM:      ShawLu

I could use some advice and direction.
My nephew's third grade teacher recommended that he be tested for ADHD. My sisiter in law just graduated from  nursing student and is on a very limited income.
She says she can not afford to get him tested, I thought the school would help her, but she seems to be at a loss. I think the child has some problems and needs some help.
We live in Maryland, does anyone have any suggestion, as to where I can direct her to get him tested.
Thanks,
LBB

SUBJECT:    Re:Testing
Date:    96-05-22 19:49:14 edt    FROM:      Adnocas

most schools/districts have a team to deal w/testing.  contact the district board of education in your area.  some schools provide the testing or if u seek outside testing, the school should pay.  also, some schools have their own doctor (be carefull, they tend to not be impartial).  go to the library and research all you can on ADHD.  question the child's teacher as to why s/he thinks the child should be tested, what is his/her background in dealing w/ADHD.  check your area for a local chapter of CHADD.
whatever you do ask plenty of questions.

SUBJECT:    Supressed Learning
Date:    96-05-23 00:23:21 edt    FROM:      MEL1822

My son has been diagnosed ADHD since 2 1/2...he is now 7 and in 1st grade but placed in a combination 1st/2nd grade class as he is also classified as "gifted".  Our schoold do not have an excelled learning program for grades below 3rd (PACE as it's called).  He excells at math (5th grade level currently), reading (6th grade level @ present) science and computer learning.  He has NOT been evaluated by the school system or had an IEP done although I have requested, in writing, that one take place commencing next fall when he enters 2nd grade (too late in the year now?).  All medical records and testing reports from (3) separate doctors have been provided to the school as well with the above classifications noted.  He goes to private classes specifically to enhance his learning and behavior modifications 3x weekly at night outside of the school system which the school also knows of.
My son does *not* like to write creatively...he says it takes too long and he forgets what he is writing about (mind moving at speed of light - hands can't keep up?).  Therefore, he does not express himself nor his wealth of knowledge well leading his teacher to believe that he is learning at the level of the other children....After I demanded he use the computer to do his creative writing and journal entries each day, she has since come to realize the doctors and me know otherwise.
My problem is that the school is reluctant to evaluate my son as the sp. ed.  coordinator stated "no modifications would have to be made for his ADHD" (wrong) and due "to the fact that he is not a slow learner".  She also went on to state he would not qualify under Section 504 - but what about IDEA?  Doesn't a gifted ADHD child have the same rights?  Also, the school refuses thus far, to accomodate his excelerated learning by providing him additional work or work that he is currently capable of performing:  i.e., he is adding 1+2 =  in class while he is doing multiplication tables at home and at his nightly classes.  He is provided 1st grade level books for reading assignments while he is reading encyclopedias in bed 'til midnight and 4th/5th and 6th grade level books outside of school.
Why are they permitted to hinder a *gifted* ADHD child's learning and thus, hold them back from expanding in those areas they excel in but try to do all they can to progress the learning of an ADHD or LD child who is not *gifted*?  Doesn't my child have the same rights?  This doesn't make sense to me.  I think my chain is being yanked.
Please advise - and thank you for any help you can offer.
MEL1822 @ AOL.com
or MEL1822 @ MSN.com

SUBJECT:    Re:Supressed Learning
Date:    96-05-24 15:32:30 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

The information you have been given is wholly incorrect. Any child with a diagnosis of ADHD is entitled to help and support. The exact nature of the help and support will vary with each child's needs.
You need a copy of CHADD's EDUCATOR'S MANUAL. I'm just leaving for the
airport; can someone tell this lady where to get it?

SUBJECT:    Re:Supressed
Learning-Mel1822
Date:    96-05-24 19:53:32 edt    FROM:      GeorgiaC4

To order the CHADD manuel you can call Caset Associates at 1-800-545-5583.  I
believe the cost is $12 which includes S/H.  This can be billed to any major
credit card.  Good Luck :)

SUBJECT:    Re:Testing
Date:    96-05-25 08:49:53 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<My nephew's third grade teacher recommended that he be tested for ADHD. My sisiter in law just graduated from  nursing student and is on a very limited income.
She says she can not afford to get him tested, I thought the school would help her, but she seems to be at a loss. I think the child has some problems and needs some help.
We live in Maryland, does anyone have any suggestion, as to where I can direct her to get him tested.
Thanks,>>
They school is complete responsible for having this child tested.  If they do have have professionals within the school system who are competent to test tor ADD, then they can "contract" with an area expert and pay for the testing.
Make sure that your sister puts and gets everything in writing.  Once a written request is made the testing must be made within a reasonable time.
It is a federal law that states the schools must test any child that a parent or teacher suspects may have a learning problem, and pay for it.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Supressed Learning
Date:    96-05-25 09:03:28 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<My problem is that the school is reluctant to evaluate my son as the sp.  ed. coordinator stated "no modifications would have to be made for his ADHD" (wrong) and due "to the fact that he is not a slow learner".  She also went on to state he would not qualify under Section 504 - but what about IDEA?
Doesn't a gifted ADHD child have the same rights?  Also, the school refuses
thus far, to accomodate his excelerated learning by providing him additional
work or work that he is currently capable of performing:  i.e., he is adding
1+2 =  in class while he is doing multiplication tables at home and at his
nightly classes.  He is provided 1st grade level books for reading
assignments while he is reading encyclopedias in bed 'til midnight and
4th/5th and 6th grade level books outside of school.  >>
Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1975 is a civil rights law that is very simple in that it says that public institutions (schools in this case) may not discriminate against someone because they have a disability, and that they must provide accommodations.  These accommdations can include not only classroom modifications but special education services.  ALL disabled children are implicity covered under 504, unless and until the IDEA is declared more effective.
If you have requested, in wriring, that you want to have the school assess your child for services then the school MUST oblidge.  Their team can either accept the evaluations you have had done to date, do their own, or use both yours and theirs.  But, if you have requested that they consider your child - they MUST.  Once the team "takes a look" at the evaluations, they then recommend whether is is more apporpriate to proceed with an IEP meeting to design a plan for your child under IDEA or 504.
I suggest that you find the book "Negotiating the Special Education Maze" which is an excellent guide and will walk you through the procedures and rules set down by the federal government and which ALL schools are obligated to follow.
Also, you might want to get a book about learning disabled/gifted students, "Smart Kids with School Problems," by Priscilla Vail.  And....The Gifted Learning Disabled Student which is put out by the Center for Talented Youth at John's Hopkins University.  You have to order from them:
CTY Publications and Resources
Johns Hopkins University
3400 N. Charles St.
Baltimore, MD 21218
[phone] - voice
[phone] - fax

You sound like a remarkable parent.  Keep up the good work.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Supressed Learning
Date:    96-05-25 09:05:11 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<You need a copy of CHADD's EDUCATOR'S MANUAL. I'm just leaving for the
airport; can someone tell this lady where to get it?>>
Yes, you can order it from CHADDs distributor (Casat) at 1-800-545-5583.  It
is about $12 and worth more than double that.  Great info.  You might think
about getting two.  Read one, know it cold, then hand over the other to the
school as a "gift" and so that you know you are both reading off of the same
page.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/ADHD
Date:    96-05-25 20:41:12 edt    FROM:      WilmaJoz

I'm new to AOL and have interest, experience in working with kids with ADD, and in training on ADD topics.  I'm an adult with ADD, as well.  Interested in hearing from those with good classroom strategies they'd like to share, as well as those with questions about ADD.  I'm a member of the New York State Special Education Resource and Training Center (SETRC) network, and have worked as a behavior specialist and/or training specialist for the last 15 years.


SUBJECT:      Re:ADD/ADHD
Date:    96-05-25 22:49:12 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<
I'm new to AOL and have interest, experience in working with kids with ADD,
and in training on ADD topics.  I'm an adult with ADD, as well.  Interested
in hearing from those with good classroom strategies they'd like to share, as
well as those with questions about ADD.  I'm a member of the New York State
Special Education Resource and Training Center (SETRC) network, and have
worked as a behavior specialist and/or training specialist for the last 15
years.>>
WELCOME!

SUBJECT:    Discussion for IDEA
Date:    96-05-27 15:58:01 edt    FROM:      ALauritzen

TALKING POINTS ON CESSATION OF SERVICES  for Students with Disciplinary problems.
1.    THE CASE HAS NOT BEEN MADE. No data exists suggesting that providing alternative education for students with disabilities compromises school safety in any way. Other changes in the bill grant school principals new discretion to remove from their regular placement those few children with disabilities whose behavior may pose a danger to the school community. The extra step of cutting off their right to education is not necessary at this time.
2.    POOR CHILDREN WILL BE UNFAIRLY DENIED EDUCATION. Determining whether a child's conduct is a manifestation of his disability is very complex. Even where school officials act with the utmost good faith, it is extremely difficult to unravel the relationship between a child's actions, his or her school experience and his or her disability. Wrong determinations of "no manifestations" are often made.  Affluent families with access to legal representation and the resources to enlist psychologists, psychiatrists, and other experts will be able to challenge erroneous determinations at administrative and judicial hearings. Poor families will not be able to do so.
3.    IN THIS INSTANCE "SAME" TREATMENT FOR STUDENTS WITH DISABILITIES IS REALLY
DIFFERENT TREATMENT.  Terminating education for children with disabilities has more drastic consequences than does terminating education for others.
(a)    Students who are expelled from school without alternative education may later complete their secondary education by participating in a GED or other adult education program. This is not an equally viable option for students with disabilities, because these programs are not required to provide the special education and related services children with disabilities need in order to receive equal educational opportunity. Children with disabilities cannot use these program to recoup their education's, as children without disabilities may do.
(b)    When children with disabilities are excluded from education, they lose critical skills necessary to     address the consequences of their disabilities.  When, if ever, readmitted to school, they cannot simply take up where they left off.

4.    CEASING EDUCATIN SERVICES WILL INCREASE DROPOUT RATES. Youth with disabilities already drop out of school at high rates. State and national studies show a strong relationship between exclusion from school and decisions to drop out.
5.    TERMINATING EDUCATION WILL MAKE IT EVEN MORE DIFFICULT FOR STUDENTS WITH
DISABILITIES TO BECOME GAINFULLY EMPLOYED ADULTS.  Even with the protection of civil rights laws like the ADA, may individuals with disabilities continue to face difficulties in obtaining jobs that allow them to support themselves and their families. Denial of a high school education will compound these difficulties enormously. In the general population, the unemployment rate for people without high school diplomas is twice as high as it is for high school graduates. Those who are employed earn a third less than high school graduates.
6.    EXPELLING CHILDREN WITHOUT ALTERNATIVE EDUCATION IS NOT IN THE  PUBLIC
INTEREST. The fact that a child may engage in improper behavior only increases the public's interest in seeing that he or she is educated.  The safety and welfare of the larger community is jeopardized if students who have been excluded from public school because of their actions are not provided appropriate alternative education to assist them in becoming productive members of society.



SUBJECT:      Re:Discussion for IDEA
Date:    96-05-27 20:19:21 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

If a child, IDEA or not, is violent, brings weapons or guns to school, rapes those in in the building, hurts teachers or other students, I want him or her out of that environment.   Why is this student the only person with rights?  What about the rest of us? If the defenders of IDEA and the current discipline provisions would fight as hard for the school being able to place the student in a more restrictive environment without having to get the parent's okay on it - the welfare of the others must take priority over the wants of the parent in these instances, then fine.  Let's keep the provision.
We cannot have it both ways.  We cannot create a class of individuals who cannot be disciplined for whatever the reason.  No one is under any obligation to be assaulted simply  because someone is IDEA or any other set of initials.
Fight to mandate removal of the student immediately while new placement is enforced.  That is the only fair thing to do for the other people who have no choice but to suffer the violence.

SUBJECT:    Thank You!
Date:    96-05-28 23:05:48 edt    FROM:      MEL1822

SusanS29 & Ratatat, thank you SO much for your help and insight....Not only have I purchased one of the books you mentioned ("Negot. the Sp. Ed. Maze), but also I have ordered the Chadd Sp. Ed. Manual (2 copies) and the other two mentioned which should arrive in a few weeks.  Also, I have downloaded much of the information contained in the library/information file.
I cannot tell you what a Godsend this forum is for me as well as any other parent caught up in this "game".  Without these boards, I would not be where I am currently....THANK YOU for your assistance, advice and support.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Discussion for IDEA
Date:    96-05-30 18:38:18 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"If a child, IDEA or not, is violent, brings weapons or guns to school, rapes those in in the building, hurts teachers or other students, I want him or her out of that environment.   Why is this student the only person with rights? "
This isn't an accurate portrayal. I'm assuming your district thinks it is, but if so they are mistaken.

SUBJECT:    Re:Thank You!
Date:    96-05-30 18:39:14 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"SusanS29 & Ratatat, thank you SO much for your help and insight...."
Thank you for your kind words. I hope things turn around for you and your child soon.  :)

SUBJECT:    Re:Thank You!
Date:    96-05-30 21:11:19 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

Dear Susan,
I am getting much of my information from the bbs on AOL.  It is teachers from
many different places in the country who are saying this.  It is also Al
Shanker of AFT who is saying this.  I am glad that in your district it does
not happen.  It does in many parts of the country, probably, in part, for the
reason you state.  Read the posts from NancyGel if you think I am making this
up.

SUBJECT:    Re:Reading111 year old ADHD/
Date:    96-05-31 14:39:15 edt    FROM:      G MOLD96

have teacher or you read his stories onto a tape, put a headset on him and let him follow along in r the book as he listens. He can also read to older kids on a daily basis use the audio tape method for his other subjects too. or things can be read aloud to him in other subjects. tests can be taken orally then he doesn't have to try to write and deal with that stress. G.MOLD96

SUBJECT:    Re:Thank You!
Date:    96-05-31 20:59:13 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Rho I never said you're making *anything* up.
I'm saying these districts have options. Either they don't know about them or aren't pursuing them agressively.
I'm a big fan of Shanker, but after all it is a political post and saying such things may be politically-prudent even if misleading.
I'm very sorry if I gave you the impression in any way that I thought you were fabricating stuff... I'm just trying to provide information that there *are* solutions. Your district doesn't have to tolerate such things.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Discussion for IDEA
Date:    96-06-01 10:21:00 edt    FROM:      PeterCB55

Unfortuntately, discussions of this sort become quickly polarized by powerful emotions, anticipated fears (e.g., a class full of innocents at the mercy of a crazed and emotionally disturbed bully) and a lack of awareness about the facts, that the middle ground is often overshadowed by "dramatic" media sound bites. What makes for good headlines does not appear to contribute much to the development of good educational policy. Some thoughts.
First, acts of serious violence in general, remain infrequent. Despite what the press suggests, overall rates  vary quite a bit by locale and makeup of the students. Nevertheless, serious acts of poorly controlled aggression are an infrequent aspect of most schools. More common are garden variety acts of aggression, e.g., pushing, shoving and fighting. However they are vivid, often upsetting and not conducive to learning.
Second, of the group of children who do commit acts of serious violence, there is a smaller group who also have learning/behavior problems.  Ironically,for this subgroup the greatest problem they face is not violence, but self-inflicted harm to their own futures (e.g., futures as college students, employees and productive members of our community. For this group, other factors may be contributing to the problem that are worth considering, such as, the interactions between the child, the skills of their teacher, the specifics of their deficits, and the particulars of the setting. Hence, it is important to look at more than the fact that a disruptive behavior occurred, when considering what to "do" about it.
Third, there is a lack of discussion about the effectiveness of "one trial" learning, (e.g., if you cross this line you are "outta here"), in response to extremely aggressive behavior (e.g., of guns and violence variety). For many children, "strong" sanctions may work because they are consistently enforced at lower levels of experience (e.g., predictable enforcement,  frequent teaching about, and support for prosocial actions in response to everyday misbehavior. We do not, have much in the way of hard facts to guide us when we get to the issue of infrequent but highly disruptive actions, and the children that engage in these actions. We have even fewer "facts" to guide us when considering violence among children with learning/behavior problems.  These are likely different groups of children/adolescents with different learning needs.
Fourth, we need to consider the effects of developmental differences between younger children, k-3, vs. adolescents in grades 7-12, when discussing the relative value of any policy with respect to violence. For example, zero tolerance approaches (e.g., to violence) seem more well suited to high school than K-3.
Fifth, among those children prone to violent acting out, with behavior/learning problems, responses by school staff should be based upon a combination of factors, including not only the safety of other students, but the needs of the individual child, the skills of the teaching staff, the probability of success with specific behavior/skill building efforts, the past history of the child and the fit between that child and the strengths/weaknesses of that particular setting.
Sixth, there is an obvious need for clear "limits" to certain types of unwanted behavior. No one wants their child to be forced to endure real or threatened violence while at the same time trying to learn the ABC's. Yet, for those children who do engage in such behavior, we must also do more than simply punish or exclude them without consideration for their right to an appropriate education. The development of realistic expectations, appropriate accomodations, and frequent review of interventions for those children at "high" risk seems a more courageous and respectful approach than the "one size fits all" model that only speaks to our fears.
PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    Re:Thank You!
Date:    96-06-01 10:22:56 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

Of course there are solutions.  You are totally correct.  And of course many districts ( I would not complain if it were only my district - that situation would be easy to deal with) do not want to comply.  One of the problems is that many of us still do not know exactly what the provisions in IDEA are.  The reason for the ignorance is many sided.  In the last two years, I have found out more than in the previous 18.  One of the problems is that the classroom teachers are never sat down and told what has been in the law.  They have been told what they are mandated to do, never what their rights are.  If you read some of the bbs under express yourself, etc. you might understand what I am saying.  It is not a local problem.  I wish it were.  I have been following the law since its inception.  At no time have classroom teachers, and for all I know, special education teachers, been apprised of all they need to know.  If you are in an area that does acquaint its people with the ramifications, you are very lucky.  The children are very lucky, also.

SUBJECT:    Re:Thank You!
Date:    96-06-01 14:42:02 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"I have been following the law since its inception.  At no time have classroom teachers, and for all I know, special education teachers, been apprised of all they need to know.  If you are in an area that does acquaint its people with the ramifications, you are very lucky.  The children are very lucky, also.  "
I was lucky. The principal of the school I served (who had no direct authority over me) made sure he understood the rules. We had a parent try to claim that her son could get away with anything, but because of the principal's level of knowledge and understanding, it just didn't go that way.
It's great if teachers know, but when truly serious behavioral things happen it's the administration who has to deal with it. They have two choices: they can run scared, or they can assertively do what needs to be done.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Thank You!
Date:    96-06-01 16:05:09 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

And too many run scared.  You were very fortunate to have a principal who knew and understood the law.  Try being a teacher who knows the law and working for a principal who refuses to learn about it.  It happens.

SUBJECT:
Montessori/ADD/success
Date:    96-06-01 17:22:43 edt    FROM:      Mayclinsk

We have had our 8-year-old, gifted, "ADHD"  niece visiting for 6 weeks - as
an alternative to perscribed Ritilin.  We have been using Montessori
philosophy and practice in our home with her (from Essential Montessori,
available by mail, $5, 707-826-1557) with great success!  With respected
concentration, hands on learning, being able to balance still and moving work
(all Montessori), plus the removal of sugar and TV, we have seen miracles
within this time.  I hope this helps someone else.

SUBJECT:    re:re:reading111
Date:    96-06-02 07:38:39 edt    FROM:      FATCATMOM

An organization called Recorded Books for the Blind and Dyslexic will provide
help in enrolling anyone with a learning (reading) disability in a federally
funded program that provides special tape recording equipment and any book on
tape, including textbooks.  I have been using this in my classroom this year
and have seen wonderful results with ADHD students in particular, who prefer
to listen, rather than re-read passages for comprehension. I am not sure if
all cities have as developed a local program as we do, but the RBFBD is a
national program.  Check your phone book.

SUBJECT:    Re:NEW FOLDER
Date:    96-06-04 21:28:32 edt    FROM:      LSavelli

I have a 9 1/2 year old [boy] with ADD. He is on a drug called Paxal. It does not seem to be taking us where we want to go. He has a normal/low I.Q. and at our request will repeat 4th grde this year.Our issues are anger and not feeling part of the main stream. He is in a spec ed class 1 to 1 1/2 hours a day. the rest of the day he is in a regular class. This seems to be such a struggle for him. He has a hard ime making and keeping friends. Any ideas ?
We could use some help. Thanks E-Mail [e-mail]   Thanks Louise


SUBJECT:      Re:Teaching LD/ADD children
Date:    96-06-04 22:30:11 edt    FROM:      OLYNN1156

I am looking for information concerning the effectiveness of an open
classroom for the LD child.

SUBJECT:    again and again and again
Date:    96-06-07 21:52:50 edt    FROM:      Kthirty

Just wanted to vent......
Since March I have been asking, asking and asking for my son's next teacher assignment so I can get her up to speed over the summer. And I've been asking for someone with experience and a small classroom. Finally got the teacher, the small classroom, the aide, had the consultation. AND NOW she is leaving for another assignment and I am back at the beginning AGAIN. I feel like that poor Greek fellow who was doomed to push the rock up the neverending hill, forever.
Kathy

SUBJECT:    ADD-OHIor 504?
Date:    96-06-12 19:12:02 edt    FROM:      CBrulle

I am interested in knowing how many of you label students that have been
diagnosed as ADD as OHI and write an IEP or does your district do an
accommodation plan under 504?

SUBJECT:    legal issues w/ private scho
Date:    96-06-12 21:55:43 edt    FROM:      KRUltd

I am interested in talking with people who have had bad experiences in private schools, having to do with the way their children were treated in all aspects of private school life.  Am especially interested in private college prep schools, and how to get the right kind of attention to start with, and how to obtain recourse when everything else fails.  Remember, no public funds involved, and therefore, generally, the schools are beholden to no one.

SUBJECT:
Re:    ADD-OHIor 504?
Date:    96-06-13 14:24:35 edt    FROM:      Socadream

An ADD label alone (under OHI or otherwise, if LD's etc.. are also present) does not automatically get a child entry into spec. ed and an IEP (under IDEA).  Only if, after testing and assesment, the child qualifies.  As for "504", at a state spec. ed. conference I attended last year a lawyer from OCR suggested to all the school staff in the room (a few hundred) that they had better start writting up "504"s for ALL their ADD kids, if needed.  In our district, of 80,000+, only 4 "504"s had been put in place (is there a message here?).  So, to answer your question, the choice depends on each child's situation and individual needs...just as the laws state it should.

SUBJECT:
Re:    help
Date:    96-06-15 21:23:02 edt    FROM:      COVALR

I'm a private educational consultant with a growing practice. I see children
and adolescents with LD. and ADD. I'm interested to find out how parents feel
about getting their children out- of- school help, in order to make them more
successful. I am located south west of Boston. Please reply back to this
e-mail if necessary.

SUBJECT:    Re:legal issues w/ private s
Date:    96-06-16 09:38:16 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<Am especially interested in private college prep schools, and how to get
the right kind of attention to start with, and how to obtain recourse when
everything else fails.  Remember, no public funds involved, and therefore,
generally, the schools are beholden to no one.>>
I have a child with ADHD in a private college prep school that is not a special school for children with learning differences.
If you school thinks that it is beholden to no one because it does not receive any public money, they had better think again.  Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, Title III, private schools have the same obligations to NOT discriminate and to provide appropriate accommodations as do public schools, as long as the student is able to acheive and meet the schools academic standards.
For instance if a student with a high IQ and who is say a math prodigy applied to one of these tough prep schools yet couldn't read independently beyond the second grade level because of a severe LD in reading - the school would be required to accept this child, and provide appropriate supports for this child such as a reader, books on tape, a note taker, etc....  Generally, because it is a private school and these supports would be considered extraordinary within the context of the general services provided, it may be that the school and the parent agree to split the cost of the private "reader" for the student.
In my case, my child has received certain accommodations and is acheiving very nicely.  Without the accommodations he would be having a hard time.
If the school is even agreeing to supervise and oversee medicating your child for ADHD, then they are accommodating your child in that case, for instance.
Get a copy of the CHADD Educator's Manual.  There is a good section on ADHD
and the law, and this portion is explained well.  You can order one from
1-800-545-5583.  They are about $12.

SUBJECT:    Confused
Date:    96-06-17 21:56:27 edt    FROM:      CarolynDi

I don't know what to do.  My 18 year-old son was diagnosed with ADD  when he was 10.  He took Ritalin until he was 13 and did beautifully.  Around that time he began to have side effects such as being agitated, irritable, and hypersensitive, thinking that someone was going to jump out at him or hit him.  Off the medicine he was a happy, normal kid so we took him off of it.
The doctors unsuccessfully tried other meds.  In frustration we gave up and
decided to do the best we could off the meds.  He has not been successful in
school and did not graduate with his class.  Should we pursue this again with
the medical community?   Are there other options such as correspondence
classes available that would enable him to get the remaining credits he needs
to graduate?  The school keeps promoting the GED, but my son says that's for
losers and wants his HS diploma.

SUBJECT:    Re:Concerned parent
Date:    96-06-19 01:17:19 edt    FROM:      MMontagnar

Has anyone suggested he see an Ophtalmologist.  I have taken my son and found
out he had 20/20
vision but was having focusing problems and is now under going vision
therapy.  The Dr. told me many children with focusing problems are often
misdiagnosed with ADD because after a sertain amount of time thier eyes get
tired and they can not visually focus, that it had nothing to do with
attention spans.

SUBJECT:    Re:Concerned parent
Date:    96-06-19 01:48:40 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"The Dr. told me many children with focusing problems are often misdiagnosed with ADD because after a sertain amount of time thier eyes get tired and they can not visually focus, that it had nothing to do with attention spans."
I have heard this from optometrists but not opthamologists.

SUBJECT:
Correspondence class
Date:    96-06-22 09:10:41 edt    FROM:      IthnkIcn

<< I feel like that poor Greek fellow who was doomed to push the rock up the
neverending hill, forever.>>
Have you considered going around the hill?
<< Are there other options such as correspondence classes available that
would enable him to get the remaining credits he needs to graduate? >>
I think there are correspondence classes listed in the library at keyword HOMESCHOOL.  One that comes to mind is Clonlara.  Their web page (I think) is http://www.grfn.org/education/clonlara.  Your son might have a negative view of the GED because that's what he's heard at school.  There are 14 year olds who've gone that route for early college admission.  And there are also kids who get into college or apprenticeships or work with the diploma their parent's have made for them.  There's nothing so special about a GED or a diploma in my opinion.  We were looking into each of these as a means of escaping permanently from the system.
Teri

SUBJECT:    Misdiagnosed
Date:    96-06-22 09:48:03 edt    FROM:      IthnkIcn

Many gifted kids are also misdiagnosed with ADD, ADHD or LD.  Do you all know the percentage of kids in America who have these afflictions?  I've read that 30% of America's children are being drugged so that they can succeed in/tolerate school.  Does anyone know where to find the actual figure? To the mom whose son had an IQ test - was it done by the school?  If so, the score is commonly 20-30 points lower than when done privately.  And even when done privately there are many variables which can affect the score:  the relationship/rapport between testor and testee, if your child wasn't interested in yet another test, if your child was depressed or had other concerns on his mind, if he was hungry or tired that day etc. etc. If your child is profoundly gifted, you'll need to find a testor who specializes in this - they do have special needs and often score low if their needs aren't met.  And there is absolutely no test for creativity.  In my anger and frustration trying to get appropriate programming for my children in school I discovered that the Gifted coordinator at the Department of Education was well aware that many gifted kids are being given negative labels.  The person who was her predecessor moved on to create a program for students to do accelerated and compacted college level work in subjects of their interest.  We've moved to another state now, and the Gifted coordinator here knows about the injustices being done in school also. This is not to say that I'm recommending you get another test, but in the interest of focusing on the positive (and what's necessary for gifted is good for all kids /or/ all kids are gifted (I kept hearing this in school as the reason why nothing could be done - but I think it's the reason something must be done.) There's a book called "Guiding the Gifted Child", by James T. Webb and you can decide for yourself (parent's know their kids best).
1.    Become absorbed and truly involved in certain topics or problems; are persistent in seeking task completion.  (It is sometimes difficult to get them to move on to another topic.)
2.    Are easily bored and frustrated with routine tasks.
3.    Need little external motivation to follow through in work that initially excites them.
4.    Strive toward perfection;  are self critical; are not easily satisfied with their own speed or products.
5.    Prefer to work independently; require little direction from teachers. (My note:  this is only true if they are interested in what they're doing.)
6.    Often are self-assertive (sometimes even aggressive); stubborn in their beliefs.

This was taken from our State Handbook for Parents of Talented and Gifted
Children.  In all the literature I've read on gifted, ADD and ADHD, LD, I
have
not found anything to convince me that there is a difference between these
labels.  Some kids may read at 2 or 3 and some may read at 12.  Some may
enjoy math, others enjoy reading, others are keenly interested in our
environment, or how things work.  If you think your child may be gifted I
invite you to log the folder at keyword Gifted, click on ADD.  This folder is
best read in it's entirety.   Another excellent resource is the free parent's
packet from the
National Foundation for Gifted and Creative Children
395 Diamond Hill Road
Warwick, RI  02886

http://www.nfgcc.oa.net

Teri

SUBJECT:    Re:Misdiagnosed
Date:    96-06-22 16:54:52 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"I've read that 30% of America's children are being drugged so that they can succeed in/tolerate school."
This is completely bogus, sorry (I have done extensive research on ADD/ADHD.)
First of all, children with ADD/ADHD who do use medication aren't "drugged."
That is neither the intent nor the *effect* of the medications used.
Second of all I challenge anyone to show me even *one* school (without a special population, say a school dealing specifically with ADD/ADHD students) that has 30% of the students using medication for ADD/ADHD.
If I can find even *one* such school I will gladly go to considerable personal expense to help turn the situation around.
BUT I have made that offer several times and such reports have never been documented.
In addition, while you say "Many gifted kids are also misdiagnosed with ADD, ADHD or LD," the truth is that giftedness occurs quite often along with either ADD or LD. I'm raising such a child myself, and I was one of them.  It's not an "either-or" situation. There's nothing in being gifted that protects one from having ADD, and a fair number of LD students who are also significantly LD in some area never have their giftedness recognized. That doesn't mean they have no LD.


SUBJECT:      Re:Misdiagnosed
Date:    96-06-28 19:59:36 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<Many gifted kids are also misdiagnosed with ADD, ADHD or LD.  Do you all
know the percentage of kids in America who have these afflictions?  I've read
that 30% of America's children are being drugged so that they can succeed
in/tolerate school.  Does anyone know where to find the actual figure? T>>
I don't know where you get these numbers!  This is what I have read over the years I have been reading stuff about educating children with learning differences.  3-5% of the population has ADD/ADHD, and of that number about 75% take some form of appropriate therapeutic medication.
There is some discussion about the percentage of the population that has learning differences (ADD/ADHD included), but the number I hear the most is about 20%.
It is estimated from looking at the research that about 23% of the population who have ADD/ADHD also have a significant learning disability.
And, it is estimated from looking at the research that about 75% of the child who have a significant learning disability also have ADD/ADHD.
I don't know if these number include children with other disorders such as Tourette's Syndrome, Autism, Depression, Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder; or who are hearing impaired, visually impaired or physically impaired.  Maybe someone else knows.
But to suggest that 30% of the children are "drugged" so they can be nice little robots for the teachers is a stretch, in my humble opinion.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Misdiagnosed
Date:    96-06-30 08:57:48 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"There is some discussion about the percentage of the population that has learning differences (ADD/ADHD included), but the number I hear the most is about 20%."
My own opinion on this is that any time the number goes over 10% someone is exaggerating. I saw 20% listed in a magazine article once and tried to trace it down, and ended up talking to the author of the article. Even she couldn't say where it came from.
Above 10 - 15% I think we're looking at normal variation -- *all* of us are better at some things than others; I don't think there's a human being on Earth who has equal capacity in every single area.
"It is estimated from looking at the research that about 23% of the population who have ADD/ADHD also have a significant learning disability."
I also came up with different statistics here-more like 40% of the children with ADD/ADHD have a learning disability of some kind.
It's kind of a gray area. If I hadn't intervened and taught my younger daughter to read during the summer between first and second grade, by the end of second grade she surely would have been diganosed as LD. In reality it was the ADD interfering (combined with really bad instruction in first grade).
To me, the combination of LD and ADD is *so* common that every single child diagnosed with ADD should be thoroughly screened for learning disabilities.
"But to suggest that 30% of the children are "drugged" so they can be nice little robots for the teachers is a stretch, in my humble opinion."
BRAVA, Ratatat! In fact ZERO per cent are "drugged" so they can be "nice little robots for the teacher."
There's absolutely no doubt: when a child's functioning improves, the teacher will have an easier time. The parent will have an easier time.
*That doesn't mean it was done for the adults.*
The real benefit, and the most important one, is to the child. Since the child's brain functioning *improves* it's silliness to describe it as "drugging." That would be sort of like calling it "drugging" a patient when they're given a medication to bring them *out* of a coma.
Gee... I kind of like that analogy! :)

SUBJECT:    Rehabilitation Act of 1973
Date:    96-07-13 16:10:34 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

OSERS Collecting Rehabilitation Act Recommendations:
The Dept. of Ed is beginning to gather public input for next year's reauthorization of the 1973 Rehabilitation Act.
ED's Office of Special Education and Rehabilitation Services is seeking comments on improvements to the law, which authorizes federal programs, such as employment services, to help disabled people live independently.
Upcoming meetings will be:
July 11, Washington, DC
July 23, Boston
Sept. 17 Atlanta
Sept. 19 Chicago
Oct. 29 Bellvue, WA

For more information contact Beverlee Stafford, Education Dept., 600 Independence Avenue, SW, Too 3014, Switzer Building, Washington, DC 20202-2550 [phone].
Written comments are due to Frederic Schroeder, Education Department, 600 Independence Avenue, SW, Room 3028, Switzer Building, Washington, DC 20202-2531; or fax to [phone] or [phone].
This, of course, includes Section 504 which covers public school setting for
children with disabilities but who do not meet the criteria for a category
under IDEA.

SUBJECT:    Re:Confused
Date:    96-07-14 10:05:59 edt    FROM:      SPECEDCONN

Hi!  Yes, I would recommend that you pursue the situation with the medical community again.  You also said that your child has been having trouble in school.  My suggestion is that you have f full neuropsychological assessment done, including been seen by a neurologist, to rule out a learning disability, in addition to the ADD.  In reference to correspondence courses that is quite possible to complete his high school diploma that way.  There is also in many school systems an option of night school, too.
Good Luck!
If you need addtional help, please contact me.  I work in Special Ed.

SUBJECT:
Re:    ADD/UNCOOPERATIVE SCHOOL
Date:    96-07-16 17:20:34 edt    FROM:      TAEA

I have never done this before so please be patient with me. I am the mother of a 10 year old son with ADD and also live in a very small town in Iowa [population 600]. We have lived here 2 years and so far the school has been unwilling to cooperate in getting a decent special education program. There is a Special Ed teacher but the school has so financially limited her that she is of all most no help at all. He is goining into 5th grade next year and that teacher says she doesn't have time to deal with these kinds of problems.  It looks like I'm on my own here and getting very frustrated. What can I do to help my son? He is being shuffled from class to class and quickly falling through the cracks. He is reading at a middle 3rd grade level and going to be in 5th, and falling further behind. Please Help Me!! Are there any special schools or maybe summer camps in Iowa? I live in the middle of the state.
Thank you,
Liz

SUBJECT:    Re:Reading
Date:    96-07-16 18:36:40 edt    FROM:      Danal1952

I am interested in finding a good phonics program to use with my ADD daughter
who is in 6th grade and
is reading below grade level.  I am also a teacher who
is currently not working.  I am taking a class in special ed. now and may be
getting certified in this area soon.  My primary concern is to improve her
spelling skills.   Mary in Illinois

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/UNCOOPERATIVE SCHOOL
Date:    96-07-18 08:50:42 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

Your teachers/school  in Iowa are violating your son's rights.  He has a right to a free and appropriate education, and if he has a disability then he has civil rights as well.  It's all a bit complicated when starting to learn about this stuff, but basically there are two major FEDERAL laws that guarantee your child be educated properly.
One is Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973  The other is IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act).  Then, of course, there is the ADA (Americans with Disabililties Act).
What you need to do is to learn what these laws say and what the rules are for following these laws.  Then you can pursue holding the school to compliance.
Here are some sources for you to contact to begin with:
NICHCY (National Information Center for Children and Youth with Disabilities) 1-800-695-0285.  If you call them and tell them you want information about ADHD in the schools, the laws that exist to guarantee your child and education and resource lists for the state of Iowa, they will send lots of great information to you rather quickly and free.
CHADD.  If you are not a member because you don't have a local chapter, I
think it is valuable to join anyway because of the newsletters and magazines
and other information that CHADD can make available to you.  Their national
headquarters is 1-305-587-3700
CHADD EDUCATOR'S MANUAL by Mary Fowler.  This manual can be ordered directly from CHADD's distributor, Caset, at 1-800-545-5583.  It cost about $12.  If you are only going to buy one book, I would recommend that this be it.  It is a complete overview of all aspects of ADD.  Plus it has a good appendix on the laws.  I recommend that parents buy two if they can, then read one and know it very well - then give the other to the school and say, "This is so we are both reading off of the same page."
Taming the Dragons:  Real Help for Real School Problems by Susan Setely, Starfish Publishing, Co., 5621 Delmar, Ste.110, St. Louis, MO 63112-2660.  ISBN: 1-8862423-04-2.  If you can't find it locally, you can order from the publisher.  This book is written FOR parents and is full of easy to use explanations and tips for helping a struggling child.  The truth is that many teachers are finding it to be very helpful.  I highly recommend this book.
Call your district's superindendent's office and ask for a copy of their policy regarding Section 504.  A part of this law says that the schools MUST have a written policy and safeguards on file and available to parents.  You need a copy of this.  Also, ask them for information about IDEA.  Tell them you want a copy of the law and it's regulations and procedures (these are written by the federal government, but eligibility requirements are determined state by state).
Contact the Protection and Advocacy Office in your state, usually located in the state capitol.  The national headquarters (they can refer you) is 1-202-408-9514.  This office exists just to provide parents with information, training about advocacy, advocacy and support.
Office of Civil Rights, Kansas City, MO  [phone].  Region VII: Iowa,
Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska.  Contact your regional office of Civil Rights and
ask them for information on Section 504, and for "letters of finding" for
your district.  These letters will let you know if there have been previous
problems/complaints in your area and what the Office of Civil Rights did
about them.  Also, tell them what is going on in your son's case and ask for
advise.  Most of these officers are very helpful.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD/UNCOOPERATIVE
SCHOOL
Date:    96-07-18 17:06:05 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Your school's stance is in violation of federal law.
There's an appeals process listed with his IEP. Once you've gone through that if you've gotten no satisfaction, file a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights.
They cannot unilaterally decide to provide an adequate education to some but
not others. No excuses.

SUBJECT:    Re: On line class, ADHD
Date:    96-07-23 10:00:54 edt    FROM:      RyanRie

I'll be lecturing in scholar's hall about ADHD.  I'll be teaching an on line class  in the fall, All About ADHd, e-mail [e-mail] if interested. I plan to teach the UPSIDE instead of all the DOWNSIDE of ADHD.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Fairfax Co. VA school sys
Date:    96-07-23 10:03:28 edt    FROM:      RyanRie

I am in a couple of lawsuits in Mich. trying to get services for my ADHD
daughter. SHe's had 4 years of failure.

SUBJECT:    Re:waiting and waiting for s
Date:    96-07-23 10:03:59 edt    FROM:      RyanRie

Lots of run around.

SUBJECT:    Re:Moving to a new state
Date:    96-07-24 23:27:00 edt    FROM:      Karakale

I work in a law office that specializes in special education in North
Carolina.  In the past 3 years I have learned quite a bit about what parents
are entitled to.  I also have a 13 year old son that has been diagnosed as
ADHD and although the school system did not want to place him in a Special
Ed. class because he didn't fit their "niche" I found out from some very
reliable sources (directors of special ed programs in other school systems in
North Carolina) that he could in fact be considered "Other Health Impaired"
because his ADHD was interfering with his ability to learn.  After you have
moved the new school system will want to have your son tested to see if he
qualifies for an IEP.  They also may want to look at his current IEP from the
other state school system.  Each child should be reevaluated once a year to
determine if the current IEP is adequate for him.  This involves
psychological, neurological and other testing just as he has had in the
previous years.  In the case of my son I had to have extensive medical
testing done to rule out that the ADHD was caused by other neurological
problems.  There are quite a few really good books out on this and another
resource would be your State's Department of Public Instruction.  Good
luck

SUBJECT:    Re:Fairfax Co. VA school sys
Date:    96-07-30 22:49:18 edt    FROM:      RoneeLDA

RyanRie...There is an 3rd Circuit decision in New Jersey called the W.B. vs.
Matula Case..Attorney is Rebecca Spar (201/ 489-3000)expert on
ADD/ADHD)..this case is very far reaching and might help you. She was able to
sue for punitive damages as well...Also, a recentlly won case called the
Zumwalt School District vs. Missouri Board of Education case...in your state
of Michigan, you might want to ask a Due Process Attorney for the case known
as 'The Poison Parent" case....Good Luck...RoneeLDA

SUBJECT:    private schools
Date:    96-07-31 19:06:55 edt    FROM:      SPEESE

I need some good private schools in the Philadelphia/N.J. area for ADD and
mildly Neurolically impaired students.

SUBJECT:    Re:private schools
Date:    96-07-31 23:19:56 edt    FROM:      RoneeLDA

Princeton area..New Grange School...Media, Pa., Benchmark School [phone]...the Hill Top School, Rosemont, Pa., (215)
527-3230...Perkiomen School, Pennsburg, Pa., [phone]...The Phelps School, Malvern, Pa., [phone]...hope this is helpful...RoneeLDA

SUBJECT:
Obtaining Special Ed.
Date:    96-08-09 00:19:20 edt    FROM:      LUCILLE31

My eleven year old son is being evaluated privately by a child psychologist for ADD/ADHD prior to the start of school. If he is indeed diagnosed with the disability, and requires certain accommodations for academic success, what are my rights as a parent is receiving school cooperation?What do I/can I ask for to assure my child the best possible education?He is a student of the Palm Beach County School  System in Florida. I have three children and cannot afford a private school with a special program for kids with ADD/ADHD.
In the meantime, the psychologist will look at a complete battery of tests, including the tova-as well as the parental and teacher behavioral assessments and his own interviews with Josh.Based on all of the available data, he will reach a diagnosis.
I appreciate all and all suggestions any of you have with regard to this matter. My son just missed the gifted program by two points- and I know that he is fully capable of achieving better grades, if given some accommodation.  I just need to know what I have a right to demand from the school system.  In my son's case, I know that if we do not address this problem this year, he will become frustrated, depressed and may eventually quit school. The time to act is now-before there are behavior problems and while he still likes school. Unfortunately, it is my understanding that it can take six months or more for the school to act on a parent's request for an evaluation and proper placement in a program. I hope that by having the testing done over the summer,and presenting the school with all the data right at the start of the year, the school will act on my request sooner..

SUBJECT:    Re:Obtaining Special Ed.
Date:    96-08-09 08:45:05 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<My eleven year old son is being evaluated privately by a child psychologist
for ADD/ADHD prior
to the start of school. If he is indeed diagnosed with the disability, and
requires certain accommodations for academic success, what are my rights as a
parent is receiving school cooperation?>>
First, your son does have rights to receive the accommodations he needs to "access" the education the school offers when his disability interfers (puts up barriers) to his education.  I will briefly outline a few things for you here, but sadly, these laws can be confusing and the schools gets them muddled as easily as we "amateurs."  What you will have to do to make sure that the schools are doing all that they are required to is to become very knowledgable about your son's rights and the laws.  In my opinion, the best first place to begin is with a call to NICHCY(National Information Center for Children and Youth with Disabilities) at 1-800-695-0285.  They will provide you with valuable information free of charge.  When you call ask them for the information they have pertaining to ADHD in the schools, classroom accommodation information and information about two disability laws:  IDEA and Section 504.  Make sure they send you Appendix C of IDEA too.
<<What do I/can I ask for to assure my child the best possible education?He
is a student of the Palm Beach County School  System in Florida. I have three
children and cannot afford a private school with a special program for kids
with ADD/ADHD.   >>
You do not have to send your child to a private school.  Most needs of children with ADHD can be handled in the regular education setting with no problem.  I highly recommend that you also purchase a copy of the CHADD Educator's Manual (it's about $12) from Caset, CHADD's distributor, at 1-800-545-5583.  It is probably the single best and most comprehensive "outline" of everything you need to know with regard to your child in school with ADHD.  You might even consider buying two, and after you have read one and know it "cold" give the other to the school and tell them it's so you are both reading off of the same page.
Once you receive the official diagnosis from the psychologist, the first thing you need to do is to plan to keep all your records in a 3-ring binder and document EVERYTHING.  This means that you will "back up" all verbal communication with a written note of which you keep a copy, and all official requests you make must be in writing, keeping a copy in your file.  Then you need to write a letter to the school, telling them that your child has been diagnosed with ADHD by Dr. So-and-so on [date] and that you are requesting your child receiving appropriate accommodations at school.
Take a look in the Special Education library here and download some of the files on classroom accommodations and tips and teaching strategies and other general ADD information files...I think they will help you.
<<Unfortunately, it is my understanding that it can take six months or more
for the school to act on a parent's request for an evaluation and proper
placement in a program. >>
I have certainly heard of schools who drag things out this long with all sorts of "officially" sounding reasons.  In reality they have a timeline to follow.  One of the things you need to do is to call your district's special education director's office and request copies of the districts policies, regulations and guidelines for following IDEA and Section 504.  By federal law they are required to make these available to you.  If they say they don't have them, then they are not in compliance with the federal law.  You could also call your state's office of education, speciale education office and make the same request.  These are federal laws so the states and local districts cannot provide less than the federal government requires.
This is getting long...more on the next post.....

SUBJECT:    Re:Obtaining Special Ed.
Date:    96-08-09 09:09:49 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

I'll try to explain to the two laws, IDEA and Section 504.
IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act) is a federal education law that is categorical and has elaborate regulations that the school must follow to be in compliance.  With this law they get money from the federal government toward their special education programs.  By categorical it means that there are very specific categories that one must "fit into" to be eligible to receive services.  Very often children with ADHD will be "categorized" in a section called "Other Health Imparied," or if they have a learning disability too, then they may be "categorized" under Specific Learning Disability as their primary eligibility.  Many kids with ADHD who are found eligible and protected under IDEA are not in "special education" classrooms, but rather are "mainstreamed" in the regular classroom with specific accommodations provided, and with some resource support for specifically addressing their areas of greatest need, like organizational, or math remediation, etc..depending.  Under IDEA, as a part of the very clearly spelled out regulations, there are "steps" and timetables the schools are supposed to follow to be in compliance.
Step One is identifying the child who needs to be evaluated.  This is part of the "child find" provision in the law.  After the evaluation, then what is usually called the multidisciplinary evaluation team meets to determine if the child has a disability that meets the eligibility requirements under one of the categories in IDEA.  If they decide that the child does, then an individualized education planning committee meeting is called to which the parent is not only invited but considered a full and equal partner, and where the child's INDIVIDUALIZED education plan is developed for the coming year that will specifically spell out the current level of performance, and the years goals and objectives in specific ways. From the day the child is eligible to the date of the IEP meeting, the school has 30 calendar days to write the IEP.  (This is an example of the timeline regulations - more details are to be had from the sources I noted earlier)  As soon as this is complete, then the services must be provided to the child immediately.  If at any time the parent does not agree with any step or finding along the way, they have a right to disagree and should say so in writing.  Once they do that, another set of "steps" goes into effect to respond to the parents' disagreement.  With IDEA students must have new IEP written each year, though it can be reviewed and amended anytime a parent or school staff thinks it should be, and the child must be comprehensively evaluated every three years.

Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 is a general civil rights disability law that simply says the school may not discriminate against someone with a handicap (disability) by providing them with less of an education/access than their non-disabled peers.  To meet that obligation, the schools must provide whatever accommodations are necessary to provide that child with equal access to the education the school offers.  Because this is a more general law, without the categories or very elaborate regulations, many children who's ADHD does not meet the requirements of IDEA can find "relief" from Section 504.  504 is most usually thought of and used for children who are in regular education programs...but, under 504 is is allowed that the child can have special education and related services IF THAT IS WHAT IS NECESSARY TO MEET THE CHILD's NEEDS.  In my mind, that is the "mantra" ....  what do we need to do in order to meet my child's needs....
I hope this begins to explain a little.  I'm sure it didn't clarify a thing,
but rather made it all the more confusing for now.  Sorry about that...but I
found when I first started learning about all of this it was about as clear
as mud!  Now, all these years later we've graduated to "clear as swamp
water."

SUBJECT:    IEP Facts - Part 1
Date:    96-08-09 09:39:04 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

These facts were found on AOL in the United Cerebral Palsy Foundation area.
They will be helpful for anyone who is involved in the IEP process.
FAST FACTS ON IEPs:
The following facts are intended to help guide you as you approach working with school personnel to develop or revise the IEP for your child:
FACT #1:  As a parent, you should be included in IEP meetings as an equal participant.
This means that the meeting should be held at a mutually convenient time, and that you should have sufficient notice that it will be held.
The IEP should not be presented to you as a completed document, but must be developed jointly at the meeting.  Some schools prepare a draft IEP in advance of the meeting to use as a "working" document.
If your school does this, request that they provide you with a copy in advance, so that you will have all the time you need to review what they propose.  You may view this document as a "starting point" for your IEP discussion.
Do not be afraid to request additions, deletions, or other changes once you get to the meeting.  You may also develop your own "working" document to bring to the meeting.
FACT #2:  Remember that you have the right to request that certain services, such as assistive technology, be included on your child's IEP.
If you are requesting inclusion of specific services, it is important to be prepared to discuss why you believe they are important for your child's education.
IEPs must list all special education (specially designed instruction) and related services (services necessary to assist the child to benefit from special education) which are required for your child.  Assistive technology (e.g., augmentative communication devices and or training) may be either of these things, depending on the individual needs of a particular child.
Related services may also include such things as:
1.    Occupational therapy.
2.    Physical therapy.
3.    Speech therapy.
4.    Transportation services.
5.    Psychological and counseling services.
6.    Recreation services.
7.    Parent training.





FACT #3:  IEPs must also specify how much of your child's education program will be spent in the regular classroom.
If modifications to the regular education program (sometimes referred to as supplementary aids and services) are necessary to ensure that your child can participate in regular education, those modifications must also be included on the IEP.
This applies to all regular education activities in which your child participates, including art, music, p.e., lunchroom, recess, and, of course, the regular classroom for his or her age.
Modifications might be as simple as minor rearranging of the desks to allow for movement of a wheelchair, or special seating arrangements for a child with vision or hearing difficulties.  Or they can be more complex, including such things as a computer, specially adapted switches, modifications in how assignments are presented, or a classroom aide.


SUBJECT:      IEP Facts - Part 2
Date:    96-08-09 09:39:55 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

FACT #5:  Lack of availability of services or lack of sufficient funds may not be used by school personnel to deny services, or to eliminate a needed service from your child's IEP.
All required special education and related services needed by your child must be listed on the IEP, even if they are not directly available through the local school.  The school system must arrange for everything listed to be provided, through contract if necessary.
All services must be provided at no cost to you.  The school system may ask you to use your private insurance to pay for some of the services, such as speech or physical therapy.  You do not have to do this!
Consider the long-term effects, such as lifetime limits on coverage, before you agree to use your own insurance.
FACT #6:  Evaluation results are key to what is included on the IEP.
Therefore, it is critical that evaluations accurately reflect the strengths and needs of your child.  You may request an independent evaluation of your child at the school's expense if you are dissatisfied with the evaluation provided by the school system.
FACT #7:  You may bring another individual, such as an advocate who is familiar with the law, or someone who conducted an independent evaluation of your child, to the IEP meeting.
FACT #8:  You may tape record the IEP meeting, if you choose.
FACT #9:  You have a right to a copy of the IEP.
The IEP is a written record of decisions you make jointly with school personnel regarding the special education program for your child.  It is a commitment on the part of the school to provide specified services.  You have a right to a copy of this document.
FACT #10:  You may request a review of the IEP at any time.
If you do not feel that your child's IEP accurately reflects the program that s he needs, or if critical components of your child's program (such as assistive technology or transition planning) were not considered, you may request another meeting of the IEP team to consider these areas for your child.
Make your request in writing, and keep a copy for yourself.

SUBJECT:    IEP Facts -
Part 3
Date:    96-08-09 09:40:34 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

FACT #11:  You may request a hearing.
If your request for inclusion of specific IEP goals is met with resistance or if you are dissatisfied with your child's program, you may request a due process hearing. Attorney fees must be paid by the schools if the hearing officer decides in favor of your request and you used an attorney.
FACT #12:  Each state has a Parent Training and Information Center, which is federally funded to provide information, training and support to parents.
If you do not know how to contact the Parent Training and Information Center in your state, please contact the National Parent Network on Disabilities at [phone] or the Technical Assistance for Parent Projects (TAPP) at [phone].




FACT #13:  Each state also has a federally-funded Protection and Advocacy (P&A) system to advocate for persons with disabilities, including children.
If you do not know how to contact your state P&A, please contact the National Association of State Protection and Advocacy Systems (NAPAS) at [phone].





Source:  The original version of this article, written by Christopher Button, and entitled "Fast Facts on Individualized Education Programs," was published in UCPA's Networker, Vol. 5, No. 2, Winter, 1992.  Christopher Button, Ph.D., is the Director, Governmental Activities Department, UCPA, Inc.
The format and content of this article has been updated, and has been adapted for electronic readability.
To secure an original, camera-ready, hard copy of this document, call, fax, write, or send an electronic mail message to:
United Cerebral Palsy Associations, Inc.
1522 "K" Street, N.W., Suite 1112
Washington, D.C.  20005
Phone:  (800) USA-5-UCP or [phone]
Fax:  [phone]
America Online Address:  UCPA INC

Transmitted:  94-03-31 11:55:22 EST

SUBJECT:    DISCIPLINARY PLAN FOR ADD/
Date:    96-08-17 17:05:36 edt    FROM:      BLuther682

ANY SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO CREATE A DISCIPLINARY PLAN FOR ADD/ADHD STUDENTS
FOR THE AGE OF 4-6 YEAR OLDS?

SUBJECT:    DISCIPLINE FOR ADD/ADHD
Date:    96-08-17 17:28:29 edt    FROM:      BLuther682

I need suggestions on preparing a  disciplinary plan for ADD/ADHD children between the ages of 4-6.


SUBJECT:      Re:Ratatat and SusanS29
Date:    96-08-17 23:43:14 edt    FROM:      Mrfixone

What is your educational background?  Both of you seem to be very
knowledgeable and current on 504 and IDEA information.  I just found this
area on the computer and have enjoyed "listening" to your answers to other
people's questions.  I do have a question for either one of you or both if
you choose.  How would you handle a Director of Special Education who has the
attitude of "ADD is an excuse not a disease"????  And what if your school
district has not adopted a 504 policy yet?  Appreciate any answers you can
give.

SUBJECT:    Re:Ratatat and SusanS29
Date:    96-08-18 12:01:39 edt    FROM:      GeorgiaC4

**How would you handle a Director of Special Education who has the attitude
of "ADD is an excuse not a disease"????**
I recently "handled" a Director of Special Education with the very same belief with the help of SusanS29 and Ratatat. You may like to begin with ordering the CHADD Educators manuel.  It is available by calling 1-800-545-5583. It cost apprx. $12 and I ordered two.  One for myself and one for the Director...so we were reading off of the same page.  It has a complete overview of ADD and an appendix of the "laws."
**And what if your school district has not adopted a 504 policy yet? **
Have you asked for the districts 504 plan? The law says that the schools *MUST* have a written policy and safeguards on file and available to parents.  If they do not have one on file then they are in violation of federal law.
Call your local Office for Civil Rights,  they are extremely patient in
helping the parents understand these laws.

SUBJECT:    Re:Ratatat and SusanS29
Date:    96-08-18 13:44:26 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

GeorgiaC4,
I just read your post in response to the person who had questions about the
director of special ed and the school system's lack of a 504 policy.  Taking
the two together, and realizing that the director of special ed is
subordinate to the superintendent, etc., I am wondering if the director
really believes what he/she is saying, or is that the party line this person
was ORDERED to spew?  These loony orders ARE given from the top, you know,
and the director may or may not be just as agitated as the poster.  Short of
the top brass quitting, or getting this individual drunk, it may be hard to
find out in the short run.  Things like this have happened.  Any teacher
could give you stories of policies that did not work and the teachers
involved were told to lie and say they were the greatest thing since sliced
bread - on pain of death or worse.  Years later, usually when the teachers
involved are retiring you get the REAL story.  Just curious.  Wonder how we
can find out?

SUBJECT:    welbutrin
Date:    96-08-18 14:49:16 edt    FROM:      CarolynDi

Can you please share your experiences if your child has been treated with Welbutrin.  My 18 year old son will begin to use it this week.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Ratatat and SusanS29
Date:    96-08-18 16:09:05 edt    FROM:      GeorgiaC4

** Taking the two together, and realizing that the director of special ed is
subordinate to the superintendent, etc., I am wondering if the director
really believes what he/she is saying, or is that the party line this person
was ORDERED to spew? These loony orders ARE given from the top, you know, and
the director may or may not be just as agitated as the poster.**
RhoLaren,
The director very well may be being ordered to spew; however, that does make both he and the superintendent in violation of federal law.  That's precisely why I recommended that two copies of the CHADD Educators manuel be ordered.  Once one copy is given to the director, he may share these findings with the superintendent and the school board. I will say Rho that I had initially started the 504 process   for my son with the superintendent of our school district.  6 years in the district with yearly Conner's checklists he said our child must have fallen through the cracks and directed me to the principal.
**Any teacher could give you stories of policies that did not work and the
teachers involved were told to lie and say they were the greatest thing since
sliced bread - on pain of death or worse.**
It's really a shame that teachers who have the very best intentions are *bullied* into lying when ultimately it is the children who are hurt by the political games the top brass plays.
**Wonder how we can find out?**
The Office for Civil Rights *WILL* find out just as they did in my
district.

SUBJECT:    Re:Ratatat and SusanS29
Date:    96-08-18 16:59:47 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

Thank you, GeorgiaC4,

You have helped many.  We stay bullied because we want our jobs and our training really does not give us the credentials to cross the "specialists".
You might be surprised at how many teachers take courses in their passions,
and because the school district does not want to address issues, must bite
their tongues.  We wonder why "some" teachers do not continue to take
courses.  Would you, if you knew you would be told not to use what you
learned unless you purchased all the materials and would not offend anyone by
trying something new?  This is a generalization, I know, but space is
short.

SUBJECT:    GeorgiaC4 Reply
Date:    96-08-18 18:37:04 edt    FROM:      Mrfixone

Thank you for your quick response.  I will call the closest C.H.A.D.D. office in my area.  I used to receive their mailings but have been dropped from the mailing list I guess or maybe they just are not sending info out as often any more.  Anyway, I never went to their meetings because of either the location or the time & day of the meeting.  Will try this avenue again.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Ratatat and SusanS29
Date:    96-08-18 21:01:37 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

RhoLaren:
As it happens I have been involved with Georgia C4's situation. Georgia is telling it as it is. There's no misunderstanding, but I don't know if it's really a story she wants to air publicly in tremendous detail.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Ratatat and SusanS29
Date:    96-08-18 21:05:02 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"We stay bullied because we want our jobs and our training really does not give us the credentials to cross the "specialists".  "
This is true, unfortunately. It takes a *parent* to challenge the
administration.

A teacher has to weigh the good she has done and will do in the future against risking her job. I was never willing to risk my job. On balance I felt I did more good there than not there. I did drop hints and tried to get parents to fight back... and sometimes they did. They always won when they did.
I would have only gotten into trouble and nothing would have changed.
Sadly.

SUBJECT:    Re:Ratatat and SusanS29
Date:    96-08-18 22:40:19 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

Susan, sadly you are correct.  We are at the low end of the food chain, and
the high end of the scapegoat.

SUBJECT:    Re:Curriculum modification
Date:    96-08-21 23:26:04 edt    FROM:      CASELAW101

Help!  Can anyone tell me if there is a state (Florida) or federal law that requires a school (private) to modify the curriculum for a Learning Disabled child.  Where can I go to research this subject.
LD Teacher

SUBJECT:    Re:Curriculum modification
Date:    96-08-22 07:52:29 edt    FROM:      GeorgiaC4

** Can anyone tell me if there is a state (Florida) or federal law that
requires a school (private) to modify the curriculum for a Learning Disabled
child.  Where can I go to research this subject.**
I beleive the Americans Disability Act requires private schools to accommodate learning disabled children in private schools.
I would try the internet to locate information or try calling "NICHCY"  which
is the National Information Center For Hancicapped Children and Youth.  Their
phone number is 1-800-695-0285.  Explain yours concerns along with your
location and then will send you "tons" of information.

SUBJECT:    HELP WITH ADD
Date:    96-08-22 18:51:14 edt    FROM:      RFikki

Attention, I need information and tips from educators and parents of Childern
And/Or Adolescents with Attention Deficit Disorder.  I am a High School
Counselor In Missouri trying so hard to inform myself and those I work with,
on how to best educate those with the disorder..  If you have anything that
might help.   E-Mail Me at  [e-mail].

SUBJECT:    Re:HELP WITH ADD
Date:    96-08-25 10:53:42 edt    FROM:      RSVacho

My daughter is 12 with ADHD.  Some things we have tried are behavioral contracts, placing her in the front of the class near where the teacher usually stands.  We have tried to avoid high stimulation/distraction.  Last year she was in an "inclusion" classroom, this year it will be pull out resourse for English, Reading and Math.  The teachers have used various rewards to promote attention and cooperation.  Last year as part of her behavioral contract she would receive a "happy note" from the teacher if she turned in all her homework and classwork for the day and did not have to flip a card for poor behavior.  When she brought home 5 "happy notes" she would earn one hour of horseback riding.  If she didn't bring in her completed homework or complete her classwork or had to flip more than 2 cards for poor behavior she would receive a "homework note".  I had to sign the homework note and return it to the teacher.  To be certain that homework assignments were copied correctly she had to have it checked and signed off by her student buddy, teacher, or teacher's aide.  This person would also remind her to be certain she had all the necessary books and things she needed to complete the homework...eventually the teacher and I decided to request a second set of books to be kept at home to avoid her forgeting to bring a book home or return it to school.  We also decided that after the first marking period I was no longer to bring her forgotten assignments or books to her.  I was to remind her the night before to make sure she had everything in her backpack and remind her once again in the morning before she went out to the bus.  After a while she learned to double check herself.  They've only been in school a week so far this year so time will tell what this year holds for her.  She's a 6th grader now.  We've been learning as we go every year so I keep looking for new options.  I'd like to think that some day she will be able to function with out the benefit of medication, but her father can't so I don't know.  We have three other children, two who also have ADHD - but do not need medication to function.  Of course it's early yet for our 5 year old but now that he is in school we will determine if medication is really needed.  Alot will depend upon the class and the teacher's patience.
Hopefully he too will be able to function in school without the meds.

SUBJECT:
Re:    HELP WITH ADD
Date:    96-08-25 11:05:09 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

You are the type of parent any teacher would bend over backward for.  You and the school seem to work together for the benefit of your child.  You also follow through at home and show you have given much  thought to what will motivate your child(ren).  Unfortunately, from a teacher's perspective, not all parents of ADHD children cooperate as you do.  They give people such as you a bad name, and may be one reasons some teachers dig in their heels at the mention of making accommodations for the special child.  They seem to expect the school to do it all, and do not follow through on anything at home.  With parents such as you, no teacher (unless crazy) would not cooperate.  Can you clone yourself?


SUBJECT:      Re:Obtaining Special Ed.
Date:    96-08-25 11:19:29 edt    FROM:      RSVacho

In addition to all the technical data that you've already been sent let me just add these thoughts.
Save your copy of everything, always ALWAYS !  Read anything and everything
about the law, special education, ADD/ADHD get facts and stories from other
parents, educators, and doctors.  Make yourself your child's best advocate,
NEVER let the school sweet talk or bully you into accepting less than what
YOU believe your child needs (and they will, believe me they will).  At IEP
meetings speak up and Tell them what you see as your child's strengths and
weaknesses, what services YOU believe he needs.  Don't back down.  You can
always drop services at anytime as he doesn't need them.  Good luck from
someone who's been fighting the system and learning from it for the last 7
years!

SUBJECT:    Need advice on ED student
Date:    96-09-01 23:56:33 edt    FROM:      BevSwickey

I have been tutoring several students over the summer and will be continuing during this school year.  I am certified in LD and even though I learned plenty about ADD during college, I have not taught in my own classroom and am not sure how to handle this student.  He is a sweet kid but is very awkward.  He bounces all over the place and bumps into everything.  He just seems to have no control over himself and in my opinion is the epitome of ADD.  He has been in ED classes in school for 4 years because of his inability to adapt in the classroom and apparantly the teachers have urged his mother to have him put on Ritalin for years.  Her doctor does not seem to think he is ADD and she has stuck by that.  She simply laughs at all of his craziness, I guess tired of trying to control him.  He tries hard but bounces around so much and fidgets he can hardly stay concentrated and is therefore barely able to read.  He has to sound out three letter words and he is in the 5th grade!!!  I want to help him because I believe he has the knowledge but what can I do if his mother,  refuses to have him take something that could help him.  She claims it is his allergies and that it would be much worse if he didn't take his allergy medicine.  I can't imagine!!!
Anyone have any suggestions?

SUBJECT:    Re:Need advice on ED student
Date:    96-09-02 00:32:41 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Well allergies can aggravate ADD, but there's a different message here: it sounds to me as if the mother listens selectively and repeats only what she wants to hear.
For instance, it's quite possible a pediatrician somewhere, some time, told her this child did not have ADHD: many pediatricians are woefully under-informed about this condition.
*In my experience* (and I can't say for sure in this case of course) such parents are always hiding something they view as a deep, dark family secret.
I worked with one mother whose daughter was completely non-verbal in kindergarten although she clearly related to the other kids and the teacher (and me). Finally after a lot of testing we discovered that the child had normal potential but a *tremendous* expressive language disability.
Turns out the mother had a retarded brother. She had resisted all help for her daughter, terrified that she, too, would be labeled retarded.

SUBJECT:
Re:    Need advice on ED student
Date:    96-09-02 03:35:40 edt    FROM:      PeterCB55

The problem may not necessarily be that the mother refuses to let the child "take something" that might help him. It could be that she is operating under an assumption that "allergies" is for her an adequate (and perhaps less pathlogical)  explanation for the learning and self-managment problems which you see so graphically in the class. Unfortunately, given the child's age, and the difficulties you mention the "allergy" explanation is "possible" but not very probable. Until, you and the special education team can elicit cooperation from the boy's mother to obtain a clearer and more complete picture of the factors "driving" the problems you see, I would worry that you might spend a lot of good will arguing over one type of "treatment" (e.g., to medicate with stimulants or not to medicate) before you have agreement on the diagnosis and the interventions that would be most suitable for this child.
PeterCB55


SUBJECT:      Re:DISCIPLINE FOR ADD/ADHD
Date:    96-09-02 08:25:41 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<I need suggestions on preparing a  disciplinary plan for ADD/ADHD children
between the ages of 4-6.  >>
You might try looking into 1-2-3 Magic by Thomas Phelan.  You can order this
disciplinary program book and/or video from the ADD WareHouse at
1-800-233-9273.

SUBJECT:    Re:Ratatat and SusanS29
Date:    96-09-02 08:33:38 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<How would you handle a Director of Special Education who has the attitude
of "ADD is an excuse not a disease"????  And what if your school district has
not adopted a 504 policy yet? >>
It's not the Special Education Director's "job" to reinterpret federal law, which has very clearly indicated that Attention Deficit Disorder is very real.  It has been suggested to you that you order the CHADD Educator's Manual.  I recommend you do this too.  In the appendices you will see a memorandum from the Department of Education and the Office of Civil Rights to every State's head of education clarifying that ADD is to be considered as a disabling condition and that children with ADD are to receive special education, accommodations and related services under either IDEA's "other health impaired" category, or under Section 504.
If your district does not have a WRITTEN set of procedural safeguards
(policy, procedures, rules and regulations) on Section 504 and/or refused to
make that written policy available to parents upon request, then they are in
violation of a civil rights law.  Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act very
clearly states that the schools are OBLIGATED by federal law to have a 504
policy and in writing and available to any taxpayer who requests it!  If your
school district does not have a 504 policy it is time to call the Office of
Civil Rights in your region (there are offices in every state), and advise
them about your district's lack of compliance.  OCR (Office of Civil Rights)
is enormously helpful.  Their are sincere in wanting to resolve conflicts and
issues, having the districts learn what the rules are and how to do the right
thing, and following procedures.  However, they are also very serious about
ensuring that eligible students be served, regardless what the Director of
Special Education "thinks" about ADD!

SUBJECT:    Re:GeorgiaC4 Reply
Date:    96-09-02 08:35:28 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<Thank you for your quick response.  I will call the closest C.H.A.D.D.
office in my area.>>
To order the CHADD Educator's manual you need to call their distributor
(Caset) at 1-800-545-5583.  The phone number for the national headquarter of
CHADD is 954-587-3700.

SUBJECT:    Re:Curriculum modification
Date:    96-09-02 08:41:39 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<Help!  Can anyone tell me if there is a state (Florida) or federal law that
requires a school (private) to modify the curriculum for a Learning Disabled
child.  Where can I go to research this subject.>>
It depends.  If this private school is a parochial school, then the federal
government keeps it's "nose out of their business" and doesn't intervene
because of the religious basis of the school.  If the private school is an
independent, non-religious school, and the child can meet the admissions
criteria and the academic expectations of the school when provided with
reasonable accommodations, then the student has protection under Title III of
the American's with Disabilities Act.  Generally, it would be unreasonable to
request that a private school alter the nature of it's expectations for it's
curriculum.  However, if you had a situation where a high school student who
has a very high level of achievement and ability has severe dyslexia and can
only read on a 2nd grade level and requires a "reader", then the school must
provide the necessary accommodations, like books on tape and someone to read
for them - though the cost of this extra staffing is often shared with the
parents in a private school setting.  It is all individual and based on
"reasonableness" whatever that might be determined to be.  I hope this helps
clarify somewhat.

SUBJECT:    Re:Need advice on ED student
Date:    96-09-02 08:59:15 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<< He has been in ED classes in school for 4 years because of his inability
to adapt in the classroom and apparantly the teachers have urged his mother
to have him put on Ritalin for years.>>
First of all, it is inappropriate for teachers to suggest that someone medicate a child.  ADD is a very real and very complicated disorder, and though classroom observations are an important part of the diagnositic procedcure, there are so many other components that need to be taken into account that I have real problems when teacher's (who have not gone to medical school) suggest that a parent place a child on a medication for any reason whatsoever.
It would be far more appropriate to ask that the special education person in the district come to the classroom and make objective observations of the behaviors that are seen, in an objective way, and without prejudice as to what is causing the behaviors.  Then, once a set of behaviors can be identified, the process of elimination can begin.  Remember, it just as important to rule out ADD as it is to consider it a cause.  The child could have an over-active thyroid which "looks" like ADD to the classroom teacher.
<< Her doctor does not seem to think he is ADD and she has stuck by that.
She simply laughs at all of his craziness, I guess tired of trying to control
him.  He tries hard but bounces around so much and fidgets he can hardly stay
concentrated and is therefore barely able to read. >>
The school are obligated by a provision in the federal education laws called "child find" to identify and evaluate any child they suspect might have a disability, and at their own expense.  It is the obligation of the school have a "Child Study Team" meeting concerning this child, and make a recommendation that the child be evaluated to uncover the REASONS for his stuggle.  This child is having other problems which may, nor may not, be caused by hyperactivity, which is, by the way, only one symptom of ADHD, and not all children have it.  And the school is obligated to provide fo a comprehensive multi-disciplinary evaluation by people who are expert in the areas of concern regarding this student.
<< He has to sound out three letter words and he is in the 5th grade!!!>>
Has this child been evaluated for a reading disability?  For any learniing disabilities?  ADHD is not considered a learning disability per se, but rather a disability that also effects learning.  It sounds to be that the school has been terribly remiss in not addressing this child's lack of progress and attending to the concerns that seem very real that he may, in fact, have a learning disability in addition to whatever is causing his hyperactive behavior.
<<I want to help him because I believe he has the knowledge but what can I do
if his mother,  refuses to have him take something that could help him. >>
The diagnosis of ADHD is complicated.  A good evaluation can take half a day or more and requires all sorts of collateral reports from observers in all the child's settings.   The treatment of ADHD is also so much more complicated than "taking something that could help."  Though, I will be one fo the first to support medication as one of the most important *parts* of a treatment plan for ADHD, one must know what one is dealing with.  ADHD brings with it many, many other complications, and medication just does not do it all.  A comprehensive treatment plan must include individual attention paid to the areas of greatest struggle for the child so that they can be very specifically addressed.  Medication simply helps the child become more "available" to learn what the child needs to learn.  And often, with kids with ADHD who have been untreated for some time, there is much for them to learn and re-learn because they have "missed" important pieces of information for years.


SUBJECT:      Teacher attitude and ADD
Date:    96-09-02 17:46:21 edt    FROM:      KEN L DCE

I am a school teacher at the elementary level.  For years I thought I knew what was necessary to help a child with ADD or ADHD to function postively in the classroom.  Now that we have diagnosed our 10 year old son with ADD and LD I have found out that I knew nothing of value before this date.  I didn't even know what to really look for!  Nobody trains teachers in regular education classes to really understand ADD or ADHD.  We are told some symptoms to look for and usually those children with behavioral problems are the first to be referred.  It took until 4th grade and grades dropping along with behavior problems for anyone to pay attention to my concerns about my own son.  Now we are in the process of providing him with a good IEP and some help.  I won't go back into my classroom this year with the same methods for my ADD or ADHD students!  I have already had some disagreements with my principal about methods she wants the entire school to adopt that would be too distracting for ADD kids.  The information I have read is vast and it is relatively easy to find good literature to give teachers and principals.  Don't let the lack of cooperation stop you.  I have sat in on numerous IEPs for students and it is never the intent of the school to harm the child.  The attitude of us against them comes from many other stresses outside that IEP meeting.  I will say, however, the meetings I have had with the school over my son have gone much better the moment I set a tape recorder on the table and informed them I was an auditory learner and needed the taped conference to listen to at another time!  Every thing must be open and above board and everything must be in writing.   The tape was an added plus in resolving any conflict in a friendly and cooperative way.  We aren't finished yet and probably won't be until my son leaves his school days behind him.  Every parent and teacher out there must stop thinking of the other as the enemy.
Teachers work very hard and parents aren't incompetent.  The sooner the
schools and the home come together on that the better.

SUBJECT:    re:labels
Date:    96-09-02 22:48:46 edt    FROM:      Writes4pay

<<Turns out the mother had a retarded brother. She had resisted all help for her daughter, terrified that she, too, would be labeled retarded.>> I have a friend who has a child that is in such need of professional help it is scary. They have tons of money and the kid is so so so uncontrollable that kids refuse to go back to his house to play after being there once. He curses kids, he was thrown off the bus for cussing. He exposed himself in the cafeteria at school, he got in trouble for stealing pencils.....he is mean, hateful, screams at kids who visit, hits them etc. When a visitor finally responds with like violence the mother screams at the visiting child about not being violent in her home even when her kid starts it. Her son spits in the faces of other children in group activities etc etc. Parents love the mom (me included) she is sweet and wonderful and giving....however when anyone approaches her about her son's behaviour she gets defensive then has a million reasons:
He was tired, he had TOO much sleep, he was hungry, or he overate, he was bored or over stimulated etc etc.
Her brother is shcizophrenic, and I know she refuses to "see" her son for what he truly is doing for fear he is also "schizophrenic". I believe he is severly ADD, and has gotten the message loud and clear "he rules the world".  He is nine years old.
Candy

SUBJECT:    Re:Teacher attitude and ADD
Date:    96-09-03 08:27:24 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

" have sat in on numerous IEPs for students and it is never the intent of the school to harm the child."
I have also, and I would have *slightly* disagree with this. I would say it's *rarely* the intent of the school to harm the child. There are, unfortunately, a few school districts out there who simply don't have a healthy attitude toward helping children with needs.
May they be cursed by lawyers bearing headaches for them. :)

SUBJECT:    Re:Teacher
attitude and ADD
Date:    96-09-03 17:36:28 edt    FROM:      BevSwickey

I'd say that you hit it right on the head at the end of your post.  The only way we as teachers, can create an atmosphere for learning for these children is to encourage cooperation and listening between everyone involved.  I think many teachers and administrators don't give parents enough input into their child's education.
I praise your ability to stand up to the IEP team and tape record the
meeting.  It lets them know that you are serious about your child's education
and that you are ready to be involved.  Keep it up!!

SUBJECT:    Re:Need advice on
ED student
Date:    96-09-03 18:03:40 edt    FROM:      BevSwickey

Let me clarify a few things here.  A few people raised the question of teachers suggesting a child be put on medication and I, of course, agree that it is not the place of the teacher to make the diagnosis,BUT it is the place of the teacher to RECOMMEND testing and evaluation.  My concern with this child is that his mother has accepted one doctor's diagnosis that the child is not ADD simply because he handled the physical okay.  This man has NOT seen this child in class, as a constant disruption, (according to his IEP), he has not seen him at the library, where I tutor him, making a huge racket, everytime.  This child has got something serious going on and I do think he needs to have someone take a better look at what is making him behave this way.  If it be allergies or whatever.  He is not emotionally disturbed ( or doesn't SEEM to be to me... I'm not a psychologist).  His IEP states all over it the reason he is in an ED class is because he cannot control his behavior in regular class. He is NOT an angry child or depressed child.  He isn't lashing out for any reason.  He simply cannot control himself.
As for the reading disability question.  His three year eval. is due in October, but in the second grade he was at a K-9 level in Basic Reading Skills, and a 1-0 level in Reading Comprehension.  It is my opinion after listening to him read and working on decoding over the summer that he doesn't have a reading disability, that his other problems are preventing him from achieving to his potential. In other words, he picks up real fast on sounds and can put them together pretty well , and he is  good at answering basic questions about what he is reading. I can tell when he is reading that for a long time he has been allowed to guess at words by the context and a few letter clues, and I know whole language people will say he is reading, but to me, he is merely playing guessing game. But we'll leave that debate on another message board.
I appreciate all the comments, and would love to hear more from anyone. I
could use all your suggestions.Thank you. Beverly Swickey

SUBJECT:    Re:Need
advice on ED student
Date:    96-09-03 23:42:41 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"I, of course, agree that it is not the place of the teacher to make the diagnosis,BUT it is the place of the teacher to RECOMMEND testing and evaluation."
You betcha. Teachers have seen *hundreds* of children of a certain age.
Anyone who doesn't give their perceptions a fair amount of weight just isn't
being realistic. (Which of course describes *every single parent when first
told their child may have a problem of some kind...)

SUBJECT:    1st Child Study
Team mtg
Date:    96-09-09 15:23:07 edt    FROM:      Sing440209

Tomorrow, I will attending the intial child study team meeting for my 11 year
old son(sixth grade) who is probable for ADD(inattentive) and has a few
Learning Disabilities. Do you have any advice for me on what I can expect
from such a meeting? I have his psychoeducational testing results with me to
share with the psychologist, and have been studying ADD/ADHD as much as I
can. I haven't done a lot of reading on the LD aspect yet, but have access to
information.I plan on asking for a Speech/Lanquage eval and appropriate
accommodations to his classroom environment and academic requirements. As a
parent, what should I be doing tomorrow?Should I be asking for things, or
just waiting for them to assess his needs and make their recommendations?He
is currently enrolled in advanced classes. He has a 24 point spread between
total and performance IQ and is above average in reading and vocabulary. His
main problems are in processing and written expression. He also has problems
with math word problems, performing within time limits, and visual
learning.Of particular concern were "Coding" and "symbol Search".Appreciate
your input. My son deserves a good education and I desire to be a good
advocate for him.

SUBJECT:    Re:1st Child Study Team mtg
Date:    96-09-09 22:07:15 edt    FROM:      BevSwickey

First of all, I think it is great that you are so involved with your child's school.  A lot of parents either don't know what to do or just don't care. My advice to you, and I have only been to IEP meetings during my Student Teaching experience and have not as of yet, had my own classroom, would be to ask as many questions as YOU WANT TO. Don't let the team run everything by you and get the meeting over quickly. I don't know where you are or what kind of school your child is going but from what I have seen, these meetings can be intimidating for parents.  Make sure they explain to you the goals they have set and why and if you don't like anything or feel something has been left out, SPEAK UP. As you said, you want to be a good advocate for your son's education.  This is old hat for a lot of teachers and even though they most likely have good intentions and want your input, they could run through things so fast it will make your head swim so make sure you remind them, that you are new at this and want to understand all of what is going to happen to your son for the next year.
Other teachers with experience may have some better advice for you since they've actually conducted the meetings and such, but I hope what I've said has helped!
Good luck to you and your son.


SUBJECT:      College Students ADD
Date:    96-09-11 22:42:20 edt    FROM:      Mugsyjake

I am a special ed teacher who is teaching and tutoring at a community college.  The students have different disabilities, but I would like tips on working with college students with ADD.
Any advice would be helpful.  Thanks very much.

SUBJECT:    Need help in Kansas
Date:    96-09-13 22:30:10 edt    FROM:      Saanda

I am posting this for a friend of mine.  She has a 9 year old boy, in 4th or 5th grade, who was diagnosed in Kindergarten as ADHD.  He is a little behind in reading, but otherwise doing ok academically.  He chews his fingernails down to stubs, he is very hyperactive, altho Ritalin helps with that, and he sometimes exhibits antisocial behavior.  They are considering Prozac now.
The main problem is that he is a compulsive liar and thief, and he lies to
the point that he no longer recognizes the truth himself.  His Mom is active
in ADD Support groups.  He is in the Blue Valley School District in Overland
Park, KS.  They are apparently not meeting his needs all that well.  He
attended a summer camp for ADHD kids and did fine, but school behavior and
response is very problematic right now.  He is very compulsive.  Does anyone
have alternative schooling suggestions, or any suggestions at all for these
folks?  Please email me directly, as I do not read this board myself.  I
would appreciate any responses.  Thank you. ([e-mail])

SUBJECT:    Re:College
Students ADD
Date:    96-09-14 09:01:21 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<I am a special ed teacher who is teaching and tutoring at a community college.  The students have different disabilities, but I would like tips on working with college students with ADD.
Any advice would be helpful. >>
There are some good books available on this very topic.  One is ADD and the
College Student by Patricia Quinn and the other is Survival Guide for College
Students with ADD or LD by Kathleen Nadeau.  Both can be ordered from the
publisher, Magination Press (Brunner/Mazel) at 1-800-825-3089.

SUBJECT:    Re:Need
help in Kansas
Date:    96-09-14 09:05:32 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<< Does anyone have alternative schooling suggestions, or any suggestions at
all for these folks?  Please email me directly, as I do not read this board
myself.  I would appreciate any responses. >>
It seems to me, from what I could pick up "between the lines" in your post,
that this child has more going on than just ADD.  If this were my child I
would have a comprehensive, multi-disciplinary evaluation done so that I
could find out what else is happening here along with the ADD.  Co-morbidity
(two or more disorders present at the same time) is not unusual with kids
with ADD.  In order to be able to sort out the differences between which
symptom is manifest of which disorder a "differential diagnosis" is
imperative.

SUBJECT:    Re:Need help in Kansas
Date:    96-09-14 17:02:34 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

I have heard the term "compulsive liar" before, but... it's so interesting that you're mentioning this in a child who is also compulsive.
Perhaps the Prozac will help.
But... there are all sorts of reasons why he might do well at a camp specifically designed for kids with ADD, but not do as well at school.
I don't know what the school is doing, but sometimes you can do your very best and not be able to help a child very much. So I hope we won't assume (without more evidence) that the school isn't trying.
I hope the child is receiving counseling of some kind along with the medication.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD-OHIor 504?
Date:    96-09-14 18:21:28 edt    FROM:      DebbieFr

I am from a school district in Texas that labels the kids OHI and writes IEP's

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD-OHIor 504?
Date:    96-09-14 18:37:05 edt    FROM:      DebbieFr

Let me clarify my statement a little better. If a child is having academic
difficulties, and a parent or teacher has refered them to be tested for
learning disablities, and no learning disabilities are found, often times the
parents will take their children to be tested for ADD. When they return to
the school with a medical diagnois of ADD we do place them under the special
ed. umbrella and they are either 100% mainstreamed or given a minum amount of
time to use content mastery services a week. Not all children with ADD in our
district are in special ed. most are able to be  academically successful
without the extra help.

SUBJECT:    new to board
Date:    96-09-14 18:41:58 edt    FROM:      DebbieFr

I just found this are today and I have received a wonderful education. I am a special ed. teacher in middle school. I am the content mastery teacher for 7th and 8th grade. I definatly plan to order a C.H.A.D.D. mannuel for myself and for my school. As our buildings department head I think we do the correct procedures in all cases, but a refresher course wouldn't hurt. I am also the parent of a 9 yr. old with ADHD, who so far id doing alright but I need to stay on my toes with him.
Debbie

SUBJECT:    Re:Ratatat and SusanS29
Date:    96-09-14 23:16:41 edt    FROM:      BigJohnEsq

By law, Districts are also required to have a 504 Complaint procedure and "advertise" the name of the 504 Complaince "contact person".   If District will not provide willingly, request via a FOIA request letter.  If not provide, file Complaint with OCR within 180 days.

SUBJECT:    Re:ADD-OHIor 504?
Date:    96-09-14 23:24:10 edt    FROM:      BigJohnEsq

At least that better that some of the District's I run into in SE Michigan who just ignore ADD diagnosis with supporting behavoir or learning problems.
I have been sucessful in getting them on track, but it usually takes them
paying a nice hefty "reasonable attorney fees" bill before they change their
atttitude.

SUBJECT:    Re:Ratatat and SusanS29
Date:    96-09-15 08:50:45 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<By law, Districts are also required to have a 504 Complaint procedure and
"advertise" the name of the 504 Complaince "contact person".   >>
Correct!  And, under the "child find" provision aren't they even expected to
"advertise" that they provide evaluations and services for children with
disabilities?

SUBJECT:    info on alternative schools
Date:    96-09-15 23:00:37 edt    FROM:      Emerald877

I'm looking for an alternative school.  I live in Monmouth County, NJ.  My daughter is 10 yrs. old and has ADD/OCD.  Please reply here or E mail me at Emerald877.
Jodie

SUBJECT:    ADD/ESE INELIG.
Date:    96-09-20 15:29:36 edt    FROM:      Sing440209

My son, a 6th grader, in Palm Beach County, Fl is diagnosed with ADD, Motor
Tic Disorder,and SLD's. ESE was denied because of inadequate documentation
demonstarting that the child's handicaps adversely affect his academic
performance/learning. A 504 was approved however and is to be implemented
pending his transfer from advanced to regular classes.How can I see to it
that the effect on his academic performance is adequately documented??I know
he needs the services of ESE in some areas, and his teachers are already
coming to me and telling me how far behind he is in his assignments, unable
to complete classwork in class, etc.In the meantime, I have watched my son's
grades fall from all A's and B's in k-4, to C's and some B's in grade 5, to
C's and worse so far(In fact, he is likely to fail for not completing
assignments).No-the problem is not at home-he just can;t get throughthat much
volume of work-it overwhelms him!He needs a class that will give him no more
than an hour of homework/day, untimed tests, shorter assignments, less of
them etc.

SUBJECT:    I Have ADD
Date:    96-09-25 16:14:30 edt    FROM:      MMcgr27240

Dear Teachers,
My name is Megan. I am a student in 6th grade who has ADD. I just wanted to tell you that I really don't try to be Spaced out or anything. I start out trying to do my work, and 15 minutes later I realize that I've been daydreamind. You can help kids with ADD like me by not making them do long boring papers and keeping track of them. Instead, let us do more hands on stuff to keep our attention.
Megan

SUBJECT:    re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-09-25 23:53:12 edt    FROM:      Writes4pay

Hi everyone....well I had the M-team yesterday. I took the shrink with me, and of course the school brought their own shrink (the one who tested and certified Bobby as gifted two years ago). Anyway once they read the educational evaluation results no body argued that Bobby is LD, ADD, etc etc.  The most surpirising thing was when our shrink opened the meeting by asking the teacher "What do you think should be done with Bobby"? and the teacher replied. "I am here because I need to be educated. I have been teaching for 25 years and have had many ADD kids, many LD kids and a few gifted kids but I have never ever had a student with the complexities that Bobby has. Please help me learn how to help him."
I was thrilled. Anyway the Mteam agreed on :
(Regarding ADD), non verbal cues to get him back on task....allowing him to move from his desk to a table in the back to work at will (teacher said he has been noticing Bobby does that to "self correct" when he starts getting off task and would like it to continue), Bi-weekly reports to the psychiatrist, the psychologist, AND the SEARCH/RESOURCE teacher, a teacher will check his assignment book every day to see that he wrote down correct assignments, also that he brings home right books. They refused to provide books in the home though, said there are no extras to be used "just because a student can't remember to bring them home.  But if they check his book bag every day this should help. Rewarding him for on task behavior etc. The teacher balked at letting him make up work he misses and giving him full credit.....we decided to let it alone until this first report card comes out and we will ask him to explain how Bobby can survive emotionally if he gets 100's on what he turns in but F's on his report card because he lost some of the assignments after doing them.
I'll finish on next post..........

SUBJECT:    re:M-team continued
Date:    96-09-26 00:06:49 edt    FROM:      Writes4pay

Regarding his LD's:
He will have card on his desk to remind him the steps to proofing work (capital letters, periods etc) His tests showed that the content of his writing is FAR above average, the LD comes into play for puncuation and grammar. They asked the teacher several times if he marks down for handwriting (he said no.....but said he felt like he was at an inquisition about it)The school shrink stressed to him that handwriting punishment cannot be an option, DON't DO IT.
The math LD is a problem. I asked for tutoring the "bad-word" of a principal told me there is non available...and is not an option at this time. Our shrink said "But you have a math LAB." (She hates to provide services and makes you speak that you know of them I guess). Anyway we agreed to a month of daily math lab....Bobby heard about this and freaked OUT!!!! He cried, kicked, pleaded and begged not to go. Says he doesn't want to be singled out....or one of "them" whatever that means. He said he is the most popular kid in the class and it will ruin him. He wants me to hire a private tutor instead. Shrink says not good, Bobby must learn to face his weaknesses, accept them , and undestand it does not change who he is. He wants me to force Bobby to do Math lab.....starting Monday.
What do you all think?
Anyway I was quite pleased with the Mteam......and his teacher. He even asked me to send him information on childhood Tourette's because he has suspected a few times that students had it but was not sure what the signs were.  Ok folks here is where I need some help...
When Bobby was 5 he did not test with any of these LD's etc etc. Now in fifth grade they are here. A co-worker asked me today if I think I could have caused these problems by being divorced, working long hours, (which he comes with me on) and not providing enough stimulation at home.(I am a journalist so Bobby has grown up learning first hand about democracy (city meetings) he has met senators, VP's and congressman, attended criminal court, attended very exclusive galas, and met celebrities. But the trade off has been very little structure as far as study time was concerned)and for several years he has been telling me he didn't "get" math...I did nothing about it. The co-workers remarks cut like a knife....but now I am worried about it. After all when he was IQ tested at 5 NON of this showed up...in fact he showed promise of being an AMAZING student. Could I have done this to him?  Candy

SUBJECT:    Re:re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-09-26 17:55:29 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"They refused to provide books in the home though, said there are no extras to be used "just because a student can't remember to bring them home."
Well try their way first, that's reasonable. But if it's *really* what he needs... he *can* get it, and excuses are worthless.
And if he *really* needs some slack on either the size of assignments or not turning them in on time-HE GETS IT.
" I asked for tutoring the "bad-word" of a principal told me there is non available..."
They are not obligated to provide tutoring.
"He said he is the most popular kid in the class and it will ruin him. He wants me to hire a private tutor instead. Shrink says not good, Bobby must learn to face his weaknesses, accept them , and undestand it does not change who he is. He wants me to force Bobby to do Math lab.....starting Monday. "
I think you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. If he feels this bad about the math lab I doubt seriously he will gain from it.  Meanwhile he made a very reasonable suggestion (if you can afford it) in the math tutor.
Also kids with ADD often do best one-on-one, which is what he'd get with the tutor. And since he had a part in the plan he's likely to be receptive to it.  Kids with ADD in partiucular do better when they're part of the decision-making (not that you can turn major decisions over to him, but he's not saying NO HELP, he's saying Tutor, not Math lab).
That *is* accepting that he has a problem. So I strongly disagree with the psych here.
"A co-worker asked me today if I think I could have caused these problems by being divorced, working long hours, (which he comes with me on) and not providing enough stimulation at home."
Really, and where did this friendly, warm, and supportive person get her Ph.D. in child psychology? Don't listen to nonsense. You did not cause this.
:)

ADD can't be identified just from testing. The testing helps, but it's behavioral observations that is key.  It wasn't diagnosed at five because there wasn't enough information then and no one brought a crystal ball.  :)

SUBJECT:    Re:re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-09-26 22:18:40 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

Susan,

Re:    the text books.  This may not be an excuse.  I remember having just
    enough health books for my class. And I had four classes, we had to share them. Could not let the students take them home. We were not lying, in this case.  The books were not new, could not obtain any more. Did not want to buy new ones until the new science and health course of study was complete, etc.  Sometimes the supplies just aren't there.  Maybe not in the case you referred to, but it really was true in my case. I counted the books after every class, hoped no new student would enter, etc.

SUBJECT:    Re:re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-09-26 22:19:11 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

Thank you for putting the child psychologist in its place. Geesh.

SUBJECT:
Re:    re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-09-26 22:21:16 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

What a guilt trip. While some of the child's symptoms might have been exacerbated due to a chaotic period in his life, it would NOT give him ADHD, LD, chicken pox or mumps.  Someone needs to learn the facts.

SUBJECT:
Re:    re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-09-26 23:52:44 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"Re: the text books.  This may not be an excuse.  I remember having just
enough health books for my class"
I understand, Rho, but they're obligated to purchase more if that's what's needed. Five extra texts at each grade level would more than serve the needs of those requiring this for as long as the text adoption held.
But then in my opinion schools simply shouldn't be allowed to continue with a
textbook that's out of print and there aren't enough to go around. It's a
terrible situation and puts the teacher at a terrible disadvantage. So-the
solution in this case would help all the children, not just the one with ADHD
-- get enough books for *everyone.*

Understand what I'm saying? This was an administrative decision to leave you without adequate supplies. They felt it was justified, but this discussion shows that the decision is a rationalization. *All* students should have their own textbooks.
I know it happens sometimes. That doesn't make it right, or good education, and maybe a 504 forces changes that benefit all students sometimes...
"What a guilt trip. While some of the child's symptoms might have been exacerbated due to a chaotic period in his life, it would NOT give him ADHD, LD, chicken pox or mumps.  Someone needs to learn the facts."
Or, alternatively, when to zip her lips.  ;)

SUBJECT:    Re:re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-09-27 09:54:16 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

Susan,

Usually I would agree with you. But in this case, being on the committee to design the science and health course of study, it was legitimate.  We all need flexibility here.  Sometimes school systems need to consider the needs of all. This was only for one year, so it would have been a ludicrous proposition to purchase new texts which might not have fit the needs of the new course of study. We were doing the revision at a time when we were calling into question much of the curriculum and the way it was being presented so it was not simply a case of updating the old format with new discoveries. We were discussing a whole new format, a whole new placing of certain topics, etc.  Sorry, to force a system to purchase 600 new texts for one year because they might need five extra is a squandering of resources.  I stick by my assessment.

SUBJECT:    Re:re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-09-27 20:08:08 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

Well, and I stand by mine (not the first time we've disagreed-smile).
I think it's unconscionable to have students sharing books.
If there had been an adequate supply of texts but just no extra ones and it was out of print, it's legal to photocopy them to meet special needs. You just write to the publisher and get a disclaimer.
Meanwhile I actually am thinking of everyone. Sharing textbooks is, in my opinion, a terrible and intolerable situation. The district must have waited a *very* long time to do a new adoption because it's just not typical to have this happen. I know you were on the committee, and I know you weren't part of dropping the ball on this, so I'm just commenting on the situation.
Even then it's legal to photocopy for the kids with special needs, and more important than ever under such circumstances.
But we don't have to agree.

SUBJECT:    Re:re:M-team continued
Date:    96-09-28 02:02:31 edt    FROM:      PeterCB55

To the best of my knowledge, status as an unmarried parent, the length of one's work hours, or the relative level of organization with respect to tasks and activities in a given family, has never deserved serious consideration as causal factors in the creation of ADD, Tourettes or any particular form of LD. While these conditions might add to the burden of managing a child with special needs it is highly unlikely that they would playmore than a minor role in most cases.  Indeed for many, the fit between a child's needs and the resources made available by a particular primary caregiver might represent a more important issue to explore.

PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    re:thanks
Date:    96-09-28 15:02:57 edt    FROM:      Writes4pay

Thanks for your responses to my question about causing my son's problems. I couldn't believe she asked me that....but of course I had to puase and wnder.  I have always explored every avenue possible to help Bobby, and insisted his needs be addressed (as we discovered them one by one (grin) and I hoped that would be more important than my single parent status....thanks for confirming I was right.
Candy

SUBJECT:    Re:re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-09-28 15:40:38 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

Actually, it is a good suggestion to photocopy the sections. I suggest that the parents do it. It takes time, time the teacher does not have. One of the reasons we were so short on texts was because we did that for special parents who requested home texts and were too irresponsible to return them. BTW, many school systems are so strapped that they use very out of date texts. These were not that old, but publishers sometimes have none extra after five years.  Sorry, we have no money to do everything everyone wants.  Yes, we have to make some difficult choices. That is the ugly reality. Many kids are suffering because of unfunded mandates. And where do you say the money should have come from?  We did not have it. And we are not alone. One teacher we converse with has twenty year old books. We had about 600 sixth graders.  Now, to buy new texts for one year, for the five (as you say) or the twenty in our school alone, so that makes 60 children needing at home texts if you multiply our school times three since there are three middle schools.  At $20 per book, if you are lucky, that would be 660 x $20 =$14200, not including teachers' manuals, and the extra copies the LD teachers and tutors need, etc.  Wonderful, a whole school system spending that type of money for one year and then throwing out the books. We buy computers for everyone to use, or math and science manipulatives for everyone, or xerox paper for the teachers to use for all the kids for supplementary stuff, or, whatever.  Will not bend on this one. If it does not violate copywright laws, let parents come in and xerox.  Will donate paper and machine, etc.
Maybe one of the reason we can say with all honesty that we cannot afford the texts, etc., is because of unfunded mandates.  We must get better funded for special classes at the federal and state level. The locals cannot do it.  The hidden costs are - no texts, leaking roofs, larger classes, no paper, no manipulatives, few computers, little software for them.  Still will not budge.

SUBJECT:    Re:re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-09-28 15:42:33 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

We buy computers... should be ---- We could buy computers, etc.  sorry

SUBJECT:
Re:    re:M-team continued
Date:    96-09-28 21:41:42 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"To the best of my knowledge, status as an unmarried parent, the length of one's work hours, or the relative level of organization with respect to tasks and activities in a given family, has never deserved serious consideration as causal factors in the creation of ADD, Tourettes or any particular form of LD."
Well now, that depends, Peter, on whether you're talking to someone who is knowledgeable about ADD. Also some supposed experts will say just that sort of thing out of their own personal biases. I fully agree that it *isn't accurate* but I have heard so-called experts say similar things. There's always someone around ready to blame the parent, unfortunately. And it's *exactly* the kind of thing Bruno Bettelheim said about the mothers of autistic children in the sixties-remember? Eventually he apologized but not until a lot of mothers had suffered a great deal over something that had nothing to do with their job, personality, etc.
I get e-mail all the time from parents who are terrified that they have somehow caused their child to have these problems. I truly wish there were no professionals spreading such notions about, but unfortunately there are some.
But not you, our *wonderful* resource! What an asset you are to us all.

SUBJECT:
Re:    re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-09-28 21:47:18 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

":Actually, it is a good suggestion to photocopy the sections. I suggest that the parents do it. It takes time, time the teacher does not have."
Having been a teacher I sympathize with that, but just because it needs to be done does not make it the teacher's responsibility to do so. It *also* doesn't make it the parent's responsibility to do so. It isn't the parents' fault the school is out of books, after all. And a good number of parents simply couldn't afford to do that.
"Sorry, we have no money to do everything everyone wants."
No, of course not. But the district *is* obligated to provide for the basic needs of its students with special needs, and there is no way they can get out of it legally. Often when a school decides it's going to solve a problem they find a way to do so, so I urge parents to stick to their guns on important issues.
"Maybe one of the reason we can say with all honesty that we cannot afford the texts, etc., is because of unfunded mandates."
Honestly I doubt that. It sounds as if the school district is *horribly* underfunded already and that certainly can't be blamed on unfunded mandates.
The bottom line is that *according to federal law* schools don't get to say "We won't provide that, even though it is needed." They can't draw a line in the sand and say we'll do thus and so for everyone, but not meet this special need.
This district's funding problems are *far* bigger than the cost of
photocopying one outdated book.

SUBJECT:    Re:re:M-team continued
Date:    96-10-01 06:37:58 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<When Bobby was 5 he did not test with any of these LD's etc etc. Now in
fifth grade they are here. A co-worker asked me today if I think I could have
caused these problems by being divorced, working long hours, (which he comes
with me on) and not providing enough stimulation at home.>>
Hex on that co-worker!  You have clearly....VERY clearly...provided your son with an amazingly warm, supportive, appropriate and rich environment.  You should be justifiably proud of how wonderful your son is and with what a good "place" his head is in.  I say BRAVA for a job well done.
You know, maybe your only fault is this...and it is mine too; that I didn't get a doctorate degree in special education and gifted education so that I could *know* with certainty what my child needs through the schools.  Shame on me!  The truth is that there is no way for you to know everything at the earliest possible moment.  You have had so many full plates served to you...and all handled beautifully and intelligently.
As I understand it, sometimes these struggles just don't show up on tests until the later grades when our kids abilities really start to get taxed and their compensatory skills are close to maxed out.   This is especially true of really bright kids.  And, you don't know how much his ADD is effecting his math performance and the sequential process of learning more complicated math steps.
Candy, DO NOT beat yourself with this one.  I too have some unresolved guilt about things I missed with my daughter when she was in first grade.  Sometimes I could still kick myself over them because *now* it is all so obvious and clear.  But...at the time, for me, it was clear as mud and veiled by my hopes and desires to *not* have real problems.  I think it is called ignorance and denial.  I've worked hard to irradicate both from my advocacy for my kids.  And, hey...so have you.
I say...we should all stand up and give you an ovation loud enough to shatter windows!

SUBJECT:    Re:re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-10-01 06:41:04 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<Sometimes the supplies just aren't there.  Maybe not in the case you
referred to, but it really was true in my case. I counted the books after
every class, hoped no new student would enter, etc.>>
In a situation like this, would it be possible to xerox the pages for the lessons at hand for the week so the ADD student could have them at home?

SUBJECT:
Re:    re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-10-01 08:15:37 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

Ratatat-
Thank you for the suggestion.  Actually, as soon as I posted, it became clear that xeroxing was a good way to go. Only question, who is to stand at the xerox machine and do this? At one point, I had six ADHD students and many LD students in the class. Who was to do this? I say, let the parent, or special education teacher. In Ohio, special education teachers have a secretary. LD teachers and regular teachers do not. mmmmmmm.  Thanks to you, I think I have hit upon something. Use the special education secretary to do many of these extra duties. Please tell me if this would be violating any IDEA stuff. See, regular teacher  would not  have the time to do it, or the easy access to the one xerox machine for 50 people.  Special ed. secretary only one with access during teaching hours (when machine not quite as busy as before and after school). Thank you, again.

SUBJECT:    Re:re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-10-02 00:58:44 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

"Only question, who is to stand at the xerox machine and do this?"
Those sorts of things always look like dilemmas first. I was lucky in my last job to have a principal who assumed problems could be solved.
With that attitude-they were. We just found solutions to the difficulties faced. We didn't always know what the solutions would be ahead of time.
To give another example, I encourage people who think a child should be retained to make a *list* of possible interventions including retention.
Then I encourage them to scratch retention off the list and see what then looks best.
What then looks best is always more insightful and likely to truly meet the child's needs.
As soon as "we can't do that" is scratched off the list, solutions can be found. I know it looks intimidating at first. But for instance-sometimes parents are actively looking for ways to help the school but can't take time off from work. At some schools they really could make photocopies after hours (not all) -- just an example.

SUBJECT:    Re:re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-10-02 09:14:48 edt    FROM:      RhoLaren

Susan,
I do like your retention and other alternatives suggestions. They sound great.
As for the xerox machine. Sorry, I know the solution that would be given by many principals. The reg ed teacher stand there and do it, on her paper count. Refuse, insubordination. I like my solution, at least in Ohio. Have the special education secretary in charge of doing all those little jobs.


SUBJECT:      Re:re:M-Team completed!
Date:    96-10-02 20:51:42 edt    FROM:      SusanS29

If the paper count is going to go on the regular teacher's account, then the
504 needs to be specifically written so that won't happen. This is nothing
but sandbagging attempts to help these kids, which isn't fair to the
*teacher,* since teachers just about universally are there every day so they
can see their students succeed.

SUBJECT:    Re:re:Susan's comment
Date:    96-10-03 04:13:15 edt    FROM:      PeterCB55

Thanks for the reply,
I think everyone has a responsibility to some extent, to bear the burden of removing the veil of ignorance surrounding childhood learning and attention disorders. While, I too have a preference for "simple" solutions that locate problems wholly within the skin of a child, a parent, a school teacher, or god forbid, child psychologists, they just don't hold up, and they do little to address the need for "realism" and compassion.
Alternatively, IMHO most parents when informed that their child has a learning or attention disorder, will engage in some serious soul searching on the question of causality and personal responsibility. This it seems to me is understandible, sometimes necessary and potentially insight producing.
On the other hand, as you mentioned the range of superifical and "trendy" opinions out there is simply astounding, at times offensive, typically innacurate (from the factual point of view) and usually unhelpful. Witness a recent article in Forbes that a friend passed on to me. The author implied that adolescents with ADD can essentially bypass admission criterion to colleges through untimed testing and special considerations at admission.  Well now,  what a deal!  You too can pursue a college education, while at the same time enjoying the benefits of a chronic neurologic disorder. As one young man recently and sarcastically described it to me, there are those wonderful "perks" such as regular trips to the physician/psychiatrist, volunteering extra time in every course in order to learn and retain just the basic course materials, the intense marriage to the daytimer, the rush of getting your tests and papers back with "X" number of unintended errors on them, the pleasure of grades that do not reflect time spent studying or knowledge of the course materials, the satisfaction of taking courses over in order to attain passing grades, the thrill of experiencing one's own vulnerability to depression or anxiety related to the costs of keeping up, and the confidence one derives from knowing intimately the meaning of the words "total committment" to the exclusion of just about everything and everyone else.
I can hardly wait for the next article.... :)
PeterCB55

SUBJECT:    Re:re:Susan's comment
Date:    96-10-03 07:27:10 edt    FROM:      Ratatat

<<I can hardly wait for the next article.... :)>>
Peter, I hope that you will take that paragraph, as is, and send it as a
letter to the editor of Forbes.  No one could explain the "benefits" better
than you have done just now.